King of the Dead vs Witch King

What a fantastic finale it would have been, King of the Dead vs Witch-King, both as dead kings of old, a true symbol of evil looking to grow in power against another who is fighting to end his own evil-enduring punishment. I might add that this battle would have kept in line with the prophecy, as the King of the Dead was of course not a living man. And I think it would have easily matched the symbolic end to the WK in a meaningful fashion by comparison to his real end.

[Boromir88]

It would be a complete and utter draw. The Dead Army were used as a scare device by Aragorn, they were 'shadows barely visible to the eye,' and could not do any physical harm to any physical being on Middle-earth. They could of course scare people, as they did with the corsairs, but nothing else. A 'shadow' or a 'spirit' is something that is intangible, and cannot bring physical harm to anyone or anything, they are more or less just there. As is the case with Sauron when the Ring is destroyed:

...if the One Ring wwas actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to a vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will.~Letter to Milton Waldman

Sauron would be reduced to a 'vanishing' point, but the Dead Army curse was for their spirit to never 'rest' until their oath to Gondor was fulfilled. And again, being called 'shadows' would mean they could not have done any physical harm.

Now the Witch-King was invisible, but unlike the King of the Dead he was not tangible. He had a physical body, that was bound to Sauron's power as long as Sauron's power (the Ring) was still in existance. And as can be seen on the Pelennor fields his physical self could be destroyed. Where hte King of the Dead had no physical body, and was 'barely visible.'

In conclusion this means, that the King of the Dead could not physically kill the Witch-King, it was not something he was capable of doing. The only way he could defeat him would be to send him fleeing, but why would the Witch-King fear the very fear that he uses? And the Witch-King could not physically kill the King of the Dead, because the King of the Dead did not have a physical body, he was a 'spirit,' and that in Tolkien cannot be destroyed. So, it would be a draw.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It would be a complete and utter draw. The Dead Army were used as a scare device by Aragorn, they were 'shadows barely visible to the eye,' and could not do any physical harm to any physical being on Middle-earth. They could of course scare people, as they did with the corsairs, but nothing else. A 'shadow' or a 'spirit' is something that is intangible, and cannot bring physical harm to anyone or anything, they are more or less just there.

I would like to hear of more evidence to prove that the King of the Dead was as you say just a scare tactic figure, & not capable of causing harm to the WK, who himself is neither living nor dead. Were not the Dead Army cursed by Isildur until they returned to fight against Sauron when the need next arised? It seems that there is more to this than you mention. I think it would be very difficult to answer what the Dead King was truly capable of.

[The 1,000 Reader]

To be honest, it is not confirmed that the dead army was powerless. Gimil simply said that he didn't know if their blades would do harm anymore, but they inspired enough fear that they didn't need them.

Being a "supreme undead" of sorts, I don't think that the Witch-King could be harmed by the King of the Dead, especially if the King could not attack after all. However, the Witch-King may not have been able to damage the undead king either.

So, unless taking in a deep breath and blowing out would scatter the King of the Dead to the wind, it's a draw.

[Boromir88]

I would like to hear of more evidence to prove that the King of the Dead was as you say just a scare tactic figure, & not capable of causing harm to the WK, who himself is neither living nor dead.~Mansun

Sure thing,

To be honest, it is not confirmed that the dead army was powerless. Gimil simply said that he didn't know if their blades would do harm anymore, but they inspired enough fear that they didn't need them.~1,000 Reader

It can be confirmed quite easily, not even looking at Gimli's words, because that would be 'hearsay.'

Let's look at the curse of Isildur:

"Though shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through the years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end."~The Passing of the Grey Company

This curse was laid upon their spirits, their 'spirits' will never rest. And how do we know this? Because they are literally dead. In Letter 192, Tolkien says that in his fight with the Balrog 'Gandalf really died,' because all death is in Tolkien is the seperation of the spirit (or fea) from the body (hroa). So, their physical bodies were dead, decipated, non existant, it was their spirits that weren't able to rest until their oath was fulfilled.

And being the dead, spirits, shadows, shades, whatever you want to call them, they have no physical body. And having no physical body, means you can't physically effect or harm anyone, because this means they are intangible. As the Sauron quote that is provided in my first post shows. Also, to note that after Merry and Eowyn kill the Witch-King:

'Witch King had been reduced to impotence'~Letter 246

After being killed he was reduced to impotence, meaning his body was dead and having no physical body, simply being a spirit, he would be 'impotent,' he couldn't harm anyone.

The whole point that I'm trying to make is being dead, a spirit, a shadow...whatever, means that you have no physical body, because in Tolkien death is the seperation of the spirit from the body. And having no physical body means you can't harm anything, or anyone physically. Eventhough if you could still visibly, and barely see the Dead Army, they were still spirits with no physical body.

The Witch-King is different from the Dead Army, he first off is invisible, without his black cloak, you wouldn't see him. But opposite of the King of the Dead, he still had a physical body, you just couldn't see it. He was still tangible, and could still physically harm anyone on Middle-earth, because he had a body. And we know he had a body, or he wouldn't have been killed on Pelennor fields, he wouldn't have been stabbed in the back of the knee, and he wouldn't have had a sword that was shoved in his face.

So, again in conclusion. The King of the Dead you could barely see his spirit, but he had no body, so he couldn't harm you physically and he himself couldn't be harmed physically. The Witch-King, was invisible (if he didn't have his cloak) but he still had a physical presence, which is why he could be killed. Which means, it would be a draw, because the King of the Dead could not have killed the Witch-King, unable to harm him, and the King of the Dead...well he was already dead with no body, so the Witch-King couldn't defeat him.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The whole point that I'm trying to make is being dead, a spirit, a shadow...whatever, means that you have no physical body, because in Tolkien death is the seperation of the spirit from the body. And having no physical body means you can't harm anything, or anyone physically. Eventhough if you could still visibly, and barely see the Dead Army, they were still spirits with no physical body.

Dude, if you need a body to do anything, how did the Aniur make Arda? Also, the Dead Army wasn't at the same level the Witch-King and Sauron were when they were shadows. The Dead Army was just under the curse. They were spirits, not crippled spirits. Seeing as how they weren't crippled spirits, a rare case in Arda, it's still unsure if they could do anything or not.

if they actually did fight the Witchking would have one because like the prophercy said that no man could kill the Witchking the King of the Dead even though being dead he was still a man