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07-23-2006, 12:04 AM | #1 | ||||||||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Third
What was the nature of Dwarves that fell into evil? In what way were they evil?
It is indisputable that Tolkien said some of them did. These references range from the simple to the relatively complex and informative (or not so informative, depending on your perspective). On the simple end we have… Quote:
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There is also note 28 in Of Dwarves and Men, referring to the suspicion that early tribes of Men held of the Longbeards… Quote:
Clearly something happened to at least some of the Dwarves. However, the nature of…whatever this was…is rather ambiguous. We have a simple statement from Tolkien that… Quote:
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Also, note that the great conclaves of the Dwarves that took place at Mount Gundabad happened in the early ages at approximately the same time that early Men were having problems with evil Dwarves in the East. Did the good Dwarves not know what had happened, did the evil Dwarves lie to them, or did the good Dwarves not really care that much? Ah-ha! you say. There is this quote… Quote:
What I think other inter-Dwarven warfare could be referring to I’ll save for my fourth arcane topic. Back to the subject at hand, I think that the above reference to Dwarven resistance to domination may hold an oblique clue as to the nature of a bad Dwarf’s “evil”. Quote:
For the form Dwarven evil took and why Men might have had bad experiences with Dwarves in the East, I think a comparison with the Western Dwarves might be useful. The system the Western Dwarves developed and used in the First and Second Ages was one of exchange and more than a little of what might be called “patronage.” The Dwarves provided goods and built for Men. In exchange, Men revered the Dwarves (particularly in the early days), grew food for them, did other things the Dwarves didn’t want to do, and fought wars for them. The Longbeards employed this system, particularly in the Second Age, with great success. It is reasonable to suppose that they used it in some form in the First Age and the Firebeards and Broadbeams employed it as well, especially on the eastern side of the Blue Mountains away from the influence of those pesky Elves. However, it doesn’t take a great deal of imagination to see how this system might be employed by somebody of a greedy, possessive, and, well, “evil” bent. Rather than cooperation, the Eastern Dwarves might have had something more akin to domination in mind. They probably viewed early Man with a similar eye to the Western Dwarves, but instead of cooperating with Men, they could well have tried coercion to get what they wanted. Attempts by the Eastern Dwarves to enslave Men are probably not out of the question. Indeed, this theory could be easily used to explain why wicked Dwarves would have made alliances with orcs. They both wanted slaves and humans provided a ready source of mutually agreeable material. (Although, if the Eastern Dwarves were willing to enslave humans, there is little reason to suppose they’d refrain from enslaving orcs too if they could. Dwarves and Orcs are generally described as being hostile toward one another across the board. And for those of you who remember the “Elves eating Petty-Dwarves” business, here’s your revenge…the Eastern Dwarves probably would have enslaved any Avari they came across as well. In fact, they would have been ideal material for it, slaves that didn’t die…easily.) This could explain why all the Dwarves could have still worked together. Early on, the behavioral differences of the different Dwarf Houses could have been seen as more a matter of degree than intent. However, as time passed, the Houses did grow more distant from each other and perceptions of good and evil on the other’s part may have had something to do with it. But even late in the Third Age (after the Last Alliance) they were all still able to work together so the Dwarves may not have viewed these matters in the same way as one might think they should. There is also another source to inform a view of how the evil Dwarves could have behaved… Quote:
I think the reason why some of the evil Dwarves fought for Sauron at Dagorlad was probably because he hired them as mercenaries. Admittedly, these theories are based on supposition, but I think it is supposition based on the texts and does answer some of the questions posed by the issue.
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07-23-2006, 01:05 AM | #2 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Perhaps the dwarves are most akin to men in mind and spirit and that free-will is something that both races share. We have seen examples of dwarves performing what we consider as "good" deeds and now you have refreshed my mind and provided new knowledge on how "bad" they can be.
Good and bad are arbitary terms and percieved differently by different people with different agenda. So I would say that the dwarves will always look after their own interests and interact with other organisations in such a way that the morality of their actions would be percieved as bad from the opposite side or by the reader who is subjected to Tolkien's regime of what is right or wrong.
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07-23-2006, 09:10 AM | #3 | |||||||
Laconic Loreman
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Kuru, great topic idea.
Well I would agree that there would be no disputing the fact that Dwarves could be drawn to 'evil,' and even to the two Dark Lords. I think it's much more easier for Dwarves to be drawn towards evil deeds, then allying themselves with Sauron or Melkor, simply because they were more resiliant then say Men were: Quote:
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Though it was possible to sway dwarves over to their (Sauron and Morgoth) side, it was just a difficult: Quote:
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But this was just one instance where the dwarves were put in the grinder so to say. They had a sweet deal offered to them, and being Durin's folk rejected the deal. Which, I think for one shows just how loyal and resiliant the dwarves can be. They don't like being ordered around and controlled one thing for sure. Quote:
We definitely see a case of dwarves and their feud with the Sindar Elves, which go back to the slaying of Thingol, and carries on into LOTR. But, I think dwarves were loyal to their allies. They knew who there friends were, who helped them, and they would not do harm against them. A good example of this is Bilbo, who helped the dwarves out immensely in regaining Erebor, and those dwarves who travelled with Bilbo would never forget that. And the friendship carries on into LOTR, when we see the friendship starting between Gloin and Frodo in Many Meetings. I don't think Gloin had ever even met Frodo, but being Bilbo's heir, and knowing what Bilbo had done for them, by dwarven nature he would be kind to Frodo. And going back to Sauron offering the dwarves a deal: Quote:
They seem to be a rather withdrawn race during the War of the Ring. Though we had the Dwarves of Erebor fighting, we don't hear much of dwarves besides Gimli, just that small bit in the Council and some more in the Appendices. They seem to just kind of want to go along and do their own thing, if someone steps out and helps them they don't forget that and will remain in strong friendship. If someone betrays them, they won't forget that either, and will be careful next time to trust them (if they ever do). So, it all comes down to, the dwarves were hard to push around, they had a strong will and weren't easily swayed either way. It was much more likely they would do something evil out of greed as we see in The Silmarillion: Quote:
And concluding, I think this goes along with what you were saying Kuru, in that the dwarve's deceptiveness, and they may very well could have deceived people in order to get what they want. For in this instance they were able to mask their intent on desiring the Silmaril, and lay a fair sounding claim that the Nauglamir was there's...but Thingol saw past this...just a little example of Dwarves trying to cloak their intent.
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07-23-2006, 12:18 PM | #4 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Recall that Gimli and Gloin said, at the Council of Elrond, that emisaries had come from Mordor promising Rings. (Right, both you and Boromir88 bring this up.) Could some of the same things (appearance of normalcy) be said regarding the original Nazgul (who were once men?) I haven't researched that in any way, just popping a question. Also-- isn't the phrase "Free Peoples", not "Good Peoples"?
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07-23-2006, 12:56 PM | #5 |
Itinerant Songster
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Galadriel's prophecy regarding Gimli seems to sum it up pretty well: hoarding. Gimli was free of it; gold runs through his hands but has no hold on him. Gold and mithril enslaved many Dwarven hearts; hence, evil. Thorin was in danger of it, but was saved in the end.
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07-23-2006, 03:03 PM | #6 | ||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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However, I think there would have been a problem maintaining this appearance of normality over a long period of time, after all we are talking about a period of time stretching across several millennia. We know that the Dwarves visited each other from time to time. Sooner or later some Western Dwarves (probably Longbeards) were bound to go far enough East to see what the Stonefoots and Blacklocks were up to. I’m kind of curious as to how the Western Dwarves reacted when they saw what had happened. Quote:
Maybe something like “Acceptance of Melkorian influence and values and adopting them as a basic part of the culture.” I think this definition may hold some validity as it would exclude people like the Noldor who, while obviously influenced by Melkor, did not accept him as the source and inspiration for their culture. On the other hand, evil tribes of Men and the King’s Men in Númenor would qualify under this definition. I’m personally inclined to think, given their location and Tolkien’s implication, that some of the Eastern Dwarves probably did the same to some extent. Of course, that also brings up the issue of how much of their original culture they retained. I think it is also safe to say that they probably did retain some of their original instruction from Aüle although it would have provided for an interesting mix of cultural influences, but no more odd than many we see in the real world. Quote:
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07-23-2006, 02:30 PM | #7 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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As far as any sort of other signs of abnormalcy, I can't think of anything anyone would have noticed. Saruman was able to lull and trick Radagast into fetching Gandalf, so he could put on a fair cloak and act 'normal' for Saruman. And Denethor, no one seemed to know about his use of the palantir. While he went drastically down hill, that seemed to me to be more out of grief and despair. The palantir heightened and compounded his despair becuase of what Sauron had shown him, but Faramir's apparent death was what sent Denethor over the edge: Quote:
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07-24-2006, 03:33 AM | #8 | |
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Following up on an aside...
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Okay, enough on this aside; back to the main theme.... |
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07-24-2006, 09:20 PM | #9 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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07-25-2006, 12:14 AM | #10 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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07-25-2006, 06:07 AM | #11 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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It would probably depend on what sort of self-destructive streak.
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02-23-2016, 03:37 PM | #12 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I figure there was an economic component to their relationship with Orcs/Sauron. Sauron did not like them and wanted to dispossess them of the Seven due to Dwarven nature, but he could work with those he hated. He hated the Númenóreans for humbling him, but he did not mind having them as servants. I do not know what Sauron promised the Dwarves.
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02-24-2016, 09:25 AM | #13 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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The Longbeards on the whole didn't want anything to do with him. The Firebeards and Broadbeams were inconsiderable and largely out of reach. The eastern houses had probably already fallen into evil of some kind even before Sauron's rise as the primary physical incarnation of evil, so working with them probably was not too difficult, at least comparatively speaking.
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03-04-2016, 09:22 AM | #14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Reference to wicked dwarves in 'The Hobbit'
After goblins are first encountered in The Hobbit, Tolkien informs the reader that in some places 'wicked dwarves' made alliances with them.
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05-11-2018, 05:06 AM | #15 |
Haunting Spirit
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I do not think that there were "evil" Dwarves in Middle-Earth. We have to remember that the recorded history of Middle-Earth has largely an elvish perspective and from an elven point of view the Dwarves may seem sometimes "evil". The Dwarves are very strong-willed, pragmatic, not easily cowed or impressed and they protect their interests fiercely and aggressive; their way of life is also antithetical to a lot of (sindarin/silvan) elven practices (mining, industry, resource-extraction, etc.). It is no wonder then that the Elves would deem them somewhat "evil" or "wicked".
But another, more important point, is that the Dwarves simply have to be pragmatic and realist in their (political) approach to life in Middle-Earth. They can't flee to Valinor to Valar daddy and mommy if things get dicey. They are bound to Middle-Earth come what may and so are forced to make hard choices and compromises simply to survive! They are not immortal, they have no valinorean "safety ticket" or strength in numbers like the humans. The Dwarves simply can't afford to always take the moral high road like the Elves! So they make a deal with some orcish tribe thats in the way of a trade route OR they, surrounded by orcish tribes in the Misty Mountains, make an alliance with one of the tribes to improve their geopolitical position and make use of the orcish infighting OR they pay some tribute to Sauron in order to stay in his good graces OR they don't immediately rebuke a Messenger from Mordor (like Kind Dain in 3018) but instead ask for more time to think, and so on and so on. Thats a cautious, realist, diplomatic approach towards the cold, hard political reality of Middle-Earth It doesn't mean that they are "evil", they simply follow political necessities in order to survive as a rather small nation amidst a sea of enemies. Tolkien is quite clear that, aside from those forced practical arrangements, that the Dwarves were never corrupted, i.e. they never became "evil". In the "Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn" he wrote about the War of the Elves and Sauron: "In black anger he (Sauron) turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbors body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Saurons host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-Dum, and with them came Elves of Lorinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards ... and (Sauron) turned upon the Dwarves ... whom he drove back; but the gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Saurons hate, and all the Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might." This is a bit contradictory; by "harry Dwarves" Tolkien probably meant "Dwarves of Durins Folk" because Sauron gave away rings to the other clans afterwards so he at least tried to subdue them "diplomatically" at first. Of course that failed, and the hatred he felt for Durins Folk must have been extended to all the other Dwarves as well. We know that by the End of the Third Age he had recaptured 3 of the 7 Rings (probably through war): so its only logical to assume that at least by the time of the Third Age the relationship between Sauron and the rest of the Dwarven Clans was as broken as that between Sauron and Durins Folk. The fact that the Dwarves of ALL Seven Houses fought a massive war of annihilation against the Orcs of the Misty Mountains from III 2793-2999 is further proof that at least by the time of the late Third Age Sauron had absolutely no control over the Dwarves because the Annihilation of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains is clearly not in his interest. Because of the close relationship between Eregion and Khazad-Dum the Dwarves of Moria also probably knew of the danger of their Ring and (just like the Elves) never wore it during the Second Age while Sauron had the One (so even IF the Dwarves of Moria could somehow be dominated through their ring, Sauron would not have been able to achieve that because they refused to wear it). And maybe they passed their knowledge on to the other Houses (i think thats rather likely). Another Quote from "The Silmarillion", Chapter "Of the Rings of Power": "The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of wich evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron." So Sauron failed to directly dominate the Dwarves, he only profited indirectly. Maybe this wrath lead to infighting, or it was this greed that pushed the dwarves to dig ever deeper for mithril (and awaken/release the Balrog) and maybe this greed also lead to the massive wealth of Erebor that eventually attracted Smaug. But while the Dwarven Rings indirectly lead to evil, the Dwarves certainly did not bow to Sauron or became his servants, they are just too stubborn and proud for that. Another Quote from the same Chapter about the Battle of Dagorlad: "Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron." Even IF (big if) Sauron dominated the eastern Houses of the Dwarves during the Second Age, how come so few were willing to fight for him? I guess those few were either mercenaries/specialists that Sauron paid or small detachments sent for the aforementioned political/diplomatic reasons, a symbolic token gesture maybe. I dont think that those Dwarves fought "under" Sauron (like the Orcs and Men) but more "alongside" him. I find it hard to believe that they gave up their religion, worship of Mahal the Maker, and accepted Sauron as God-King. Again: the Dwarves cant always take the moral high road of the Elves because they are not immortal and dont have a valinorean "safety ticket" that would allow them to fall back on the Valar. They have to live, stay and die in Middle-earth and are forced to compromise and make hard choices. That is not "evil" thats life! The Elves just don't "get it". Being totally "moral" is easy if you are immortal and can always flee the situation and leave for an otherworldly paradise! Last edited by denethorthefirst; 05-11-2018 at 07:10 AM. |
05-11-2018, 06:53 AM | #16 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Just a few idle thoughts...
In some respects I actually think morally the Dwarves are more like the Elves, or at least the Noldor, than Men. Both Elves and Dwarves were capable of being evil without having a history of directly/willingly serving Morgoth or his followers. By contrast, all Men "fell" and did so by worshipping the Shadow. When the Noldor fell (both times), worship of the Shadow was not involved, despite collaboration with Sauron in the second fall. Perhaps it depends upon how much room for neutrality there is in the spiritual struggle of Ëa, to neither support nor oppose the Shadow. Pragmatism does seem the appropriate word, as one cannot imagine the Dwarves in the East having much opportunity to act upon a presumably natural antipathy for Sauron. If "wicked Dwarves" made alliances with Orcs, for all we know that made it more difficult for Sauron to exert his control over those Orcs, which in the broader scheme may have brought about good.
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05-19-2018, 10:51 PM | #17 | ||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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