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Old 07-23-2006, 12:04 AM   #1
Kuruharan
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Boots Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Third

What was the nature of Dwarves that fell into evil? In what way were they evil?

It is indisputable that Tolkien said some of them did. These references range from the simple to the relatively complex and informative (or not so informative, depending on your perspective).

On the simple end we have…

Quote:
…in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with [goblins].
-Over Hill and Under Hill
and

Quote:
Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.
-Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
...clearly implying that some did fight for Sauron.

There is also note 28 in Of Dwarves and Men, referring to the suspicion that early tribes of Men held of the Longbeards…

Quote:
For they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind. [This was a later penciled note. On the previous page of the typescript my father wrote at the same time, without indication of its reference to the text but perhaps arising from the mention (p. 301) of the awakening of the eastern kindreds of the Dwarves: “Alas, it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.”]
This passage indicates that this corruption of the Blacklocks and Stonefoots (and potentially of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards) must have happened fairly soon after those Houses left Khazad-dum and returned to the places where their Fathers awakened.

Clearly something happened to at least some of the Dwarves. However, the nature of…whatever this was…is rather ambiguous.

We have a simple statement from Tolkien that…

Quote:
[Dwarves] are not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile
-Letter 156
…so there is nothing inherently evil about Dwarves. Something must have corrupted them. Obviously, this would be the influence of Melkor. The timeline for this is a bit…difficult and it is not my intention to explore that here (at least in this post). However, the ambiguous aspect of this Dwarven descent into evil is that these evil Dwarves apparently still had normal, peaceful, and even cooperative contact with their non-evil kin in the West.

Quote:
Though these four points [ancestral halls of the Seven Houses] were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication, and in the early ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad. In times of great need even the most distant would send help to any of their people; as was the case in the great War against the Orks (Third Age 2793 to 2799).
-Of Dwarves and Men
and

Quote:
Durin’s Folk gathered all their host, and they were joined by great forces sent from the Houses of other Fathers; for this dishonour to the heir of the Eldest of their race filled them with wrath.
-Durin’s Folk, Appendix A
and

Quote:
He is an enemy quite beyond the powers of all the dwarves put together, if they could all be collected again from the four corners of the world.
-An Unexpected Party (emphasis mine)
So these good and evil dwarves could and did work together…ironically enough at least once to fight against evil creatures that were the primary servants of someone who at least had some influence over some of them. That the evil dwarves would fight orcs is not itself surprising as Tolkien never depicted cooperation as being one of the evil side’s strong points. However, the motivation of the evil Dwarves to fight is interesting. They fought out of a sense of shame and dishonor and to help their kin. These are not impulses one tends to associate with evil creatures.

Also, note that the great conclaves of the Dwarves that took place at Mount Gundabad happened in the early ages at approximately the same time that early Men were having problems with evil Dwarves in the East. Did the good Dwarves not know what had happened, did the evil Dwarves lie to them, or did the good Dwarves not really care that much?

Ah-ha! you say. There is this quote…

Quote:
A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships.
-Of the Sindar (emphasis mine)
…perhaps the good Dwarves and the evil Dwarves didn’t get along too well after all. However, warfare amongst the Dwarven Houses after the very early period when they were all together would have been, in many ways, a rather impractical affair. The early stage warfare that may or may not have taken place when all Seven Houses were together in the Misty Mountains would have been before the Eastern Houses fell into evil. After Dwarven civilization split up and went its separate ways it would have been difficult (to put it mildly) for the “good” Western Houses to go fight the “evil” Eastern Houses. First of all, just getting there would have been almost impossibly difficult. Then after they got there, what were they supposed to do except just burn and kill everything in sight (which would not have been very easy anyway) and then turn around and leave? It just does not seem very practical or useful. I don’t think that we can say that one Dwarf House fought another because they thought their opponent was “good” or “evil” with one exception…the War of the Last Alliance. Tolkien said that Dwarves fought there for Sauron and that the Longbeards fought for the Last Alliance. The extent of participation for both groups is cloudy at best. The reason why the Longbeards fought was basically because they were “good,” although by this point they had plenty of reason to want Sauron gone for purely practical reasons as well. Why the “evil” Dwarves fought is actually not as clear. “It is because they were evil,” is the obvious answer, but I think that is only a partial explanation. Tolkien repeatedly described Dwarves as being resistant to any form of outside domination. Indeed, their resistance to domination is the reason Sauron hated them in general and the Longbeards in particular. I don’t think the evil Dwarves fought against the Last Alliance because they had to.

What I think other inter-Dwarven warfare could be referring to I’ll save for my fourth arcane topic.

Back to the subject at hand, I think that the above reference to Dwarven resistance to domination may hold an oblique clue as to the nature of a bad Dwarf’s “evil”.

Quote:
The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all those who deprived them.
-Durin's Folk, Appendix A
This was the effect the Dwarven Rings had on those who possessed them. I think this may have been the effect that the power of Melkor had over the Eastern Houses and this was the nature of Dwarven evil (or at least the heart of it). Morgoth’s power took the gold-lust and possessiveness that was in the heart of even a good dwarf and inflamed it beyond all reason. This seems in keeping with Morgoth’s M.O. in taking a thing and warping it so that a comparatively benign trait becomes depraved. (Okay, so gold-lust, etc. might not be exactly “benign”, but you get my point.) An interesting note in this context is that Tolkien said the element Morgoth had the greatest influence upon was gold.

For the form Dwarven evil took and why Men might have had bad experiences with Dwarves in the East, I think a comparison with the Western Dwarves might be useful. The system the Western Dwarves developed and used in the First and Second Ages was one of exchange and more than a little of what might be called “patronage.” The Dwarves provided goods and built for Men. In exchange, Men revered the Dwarves (particularly in the early days), grew food for them, did other things the Dwarves didn’t want to do, and fought wars for them. The Longbeards employed this system, particularly in the Second Age, with great success. It is reasonable to suppose that they used it in some form in the First Age and the Firebeards and Broadbeams employed it as well, especially on the eastern side of the Blue Mountains away from the influence of those pesky Elves. However, it doesn’t take a great deal of imagination to see how this system might be employed by somebody of a greedy, possessive, and, well, “evil” bent. Rather than cooperation, the Eastern Dwarves might have had something more akin to domination in mind. They probably viewed early Man with a similar eye to the Western Dwarves, but instead of cooperating with Men, they could well have tried coercion to get what they wanted. Attempts by the Eastern Dwarves to enslave Men are probably not out of the question. Indeed, this theory could be easily used to explain why wicked Dwarves would have made alliances with orcs. They both wanted slaves and humans provided a ready source of mutually agreeable material. (Although, if the Eastern Dwarves were willing to enslave humans, there is little reason to suppose they’d refrain from enslaving orcs too if they could. Dwarves and Orcs are generally described as being hostile toward one another across the board. And for those of you who remember the “Elves eating Petty-Dwarves” business, here’s your revenge…the Eastern Dwarves probably would have enslaved any Avari they came across as well. In fact, they would have been ideal material for it, slaves that didn’t die…easily.)

This could explain why all the Dwarves could have still worked together. Early on, the behavioral differences of the different Dwarf Houses could have been seen as more a matter of degree than intent. However, as time passed, the Houses did grow more distant from each other and perceptions of good and evil on the other’s part may have had something to do with it. But even late in the Third Age (after the Last Alliance) they were all still able to work together so the Dwarves may not have viewed these matters in the same way as one might think they should.

There is also another source to inform a view of how the evil Dwarves could have behaved…

Quote:
…the Nauglath in those days did great traffic with the free Noldoi, and, ‘tis said, with the Orcs and soldiers of Melko also.

and

Moreover [Naugladur] gathered about him a great host of the Orcs, and wandering goblins, promising them a good wage, and the pleasure of their Master moreover, and a rich booty at the end; and all these he armed with his own weapons.
-The Nauglafring
…Tolkien’s earliest conception of amoral Dwarves who were willing to deal with anybody who could profit them and use whatever means to get what they wanted.

I think the reason why some of the evil Dwarves fought for Sauron at Dagorlad was probably because he hired them as mercenaries.

Admittedly, these theories are based on supposition, but I think it is supposition based on the texts and does answer some of the questions posed by the issue.
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Old 07-23-2006, 01:05 AM   #2
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Perhaps the dwarves are most akin to men in mind and spirit and that free-will is something that both races share. We have seen examples of dwarves performing what we consider as "good" deeds and now you have refreshed my mind and provided new knowledge on how "bad" they can be.

Good and bad are arbitary terms and percieved differently by different people with different agenda. So I would say that the dwarves will always look after their own interests and interact with other organisations in such a way that the morality of their actions would be percieved as bad from the opposite side or by the reader who is subjected to Tolkien's regime of what is right or wrong.
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Old 07-23-2006, 09:10 AM   #3
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White Tree ~

Kuru, great topic idea.

Well I would agree that there would be no disputing the fact that Dwarves could be drawn to 'evil,' and even to the two Dark Lords. I think it's much more easier for Dwarves to be drawn towards evil deeds, then allying themselves with Sauron or Melkor, simply because they were more resiliant then say Men were:
Quote:
Other originally independent creatures, and Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves) could be reduced to a like condition. But ’puppets’, with no independent life or will, would simply cease to move or do anything at all when the will of their maker was brought to nothing.~Morgoth's Ring: Text X
Tolkien refers to Sauron's orcs as being like 'puppets' under his control. For Dwarves and Elves this 'puppet-like' state is impossible to be reduced to. They will always have an independent will, and could not be reduced to an orc-like state of slavedom.

Also...
Quote:
'The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows.'~Of the Rings of Power
They were hard to be brought over to serve Sauron or Morgoth, because they didn't like to be 'tamed' and 'controlled.' And they couldn't be turned to 'shadows' into Wraith-like state as the 9 men were.

Though it was possible to sway dwarves over to their (Sauron and Morgoth) side, it was just a difficult:
Quote:
'From Imladris they [Army of the Last Alliance] crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the River Anduin, and so came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad, the Battle Plain, which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only.'~ibid
We see in the Council of Elrond that the dwarves of Erebor were offered a deal:
Quote:
'As a small token only of your Friendship Sauron asks this,' he said: 'that you should find this thief,' such was his word, 'and get from him, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trile that Sauron fancies, and in earnest of your good will. Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever. Find only news of the thief, whether he still lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting friendship from the Lord. Refuse, and things will not seem so well. Do you refuse?'
Dain refuses the offer, and somewhere that I can't find right now, it talks about the loyalty of Durin's folke and solely helping the Last Alliance in the Second Age.

But this was just one instance where the dwarves were put in the grinder so to say. They had a sweet deal offered to them, and being Durin's folk rejected the deal. Which, I think for one shows just how loyal and resiliant the dwarves can be. They don't like being ordered around and controlled one thing for sure.

Quote:
They are a toug, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsman rather than things that live by their own life. But they are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will, whatever the tales of Men may have alleged. For Men of old lusted after their wealth and the work of their handsm and there has been enmity between the races.~Appendix F: Languages of the People of the Third Age
What's important is they were 'retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), so they remembered grudges or friendships. Which, I think could factor into whether dwarves fight with 'evil' or not.

We definitely see a case of dwarves and their feud with the Sindar Elves, which go back to the slaying of Thingol, and carries on into LOTR. But, I think dwarves were loyal to their allies. They knew who there friends were, who helped them, and they would not do harm against them.

A good example of this is Bilbo, who helped the dwarves out immensely in regaining Erebor, and those dwarves who travelled with Bilbo would never forget that. And the friendship carries on into LOTR, when we see the friendship starting between Gloin and Frodo in Many Meetings. I don't think Gloin had ever even met Frodo, but being Bilbo's heir, and knowing what Bilbo had done for them, by dwarven nature he would be kind to Frodo. And going back to Sauron offering the dwarves a deal:
Quote:
'Heavy have the hearts of our chieftains been since that night. We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old.'~The Council of Elrond
So, by dwarven nature, I think it's much more likely they would commit an evil act on their own (out of greed mostly) than to be swayed to Sauron or Morgoth's side (though that was possible). The dwarves knew who there friends were, knew who has helped them and who has betrayed them in the past, and they don't forget that.

They seem to be a rather withdrawn race during the War of the Ring. Though we had the Dwarves of Erebor fighting, we don't hear much of dwarves besides Gimli, just that small bit in the Council and some more in the Appendices. They seem to just kind of want to go along and do their own thing, if someone steps out and helps them they don't forget that and will remain in strong friendship. If someone betrays them, they won't forget that either, and will be careful next time to trust them (if they ever do).

So, it all comes down to, the dwarves were hard to push around, they had a strong will and weren't easily swayed either way. It was much more likely they would do something evil out of greed as we see in The Silmarillion:
Quote:
Then Thingol, being alone among them, made to take it up and clasp it about his neck; but the Dwarves in that moment withheld it from him, and demainded that they yied it up to them, saying: 'By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamir, that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagun who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Hurin the man of Dor-lomin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.' But Thingol perceived their heards, and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent...~Of the Ruin of Doriath
Whoever was right or wrong in this case doesn't matter, the dwarves (as well as Thingol) got greedy and in their wrath slew Thingol.

And concluding, I think this goes along with what you were saying Kuru, in that the dwarve's deceptiveness, and they may very well could have deceived people in order to get what they want. For in this instance they were able to mask their intent on desiring the Silmaril, and lay a fair sounding claim that the Nauglamir was there's...but Thingol saw past this...just a little example of Dwarves trying to cloak their intent.
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Old 07-23-2006, 12:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuruharan
However, the ambiguous aspect of this Dwarven descent into evil is that these evil Dwarves apparently still had normal, peaceful, and even cooperative contact with their non-evil kin in the West.
Quick thoughts while I'm halfway thru the first post-- So did Saruman and Denethor even while they used the Palantiri. They had succumbed, but they were able to maintain the appearance of normalcy.

Recall that Gimli and Gloin said, at the Council of Elrond, that emisaries had come from Mordor promising Rings. (Right, both you and Boromir88 bring this up.)

Could some of the same things (appearance of normalcy) be said regarding the original Nazgul (who were once men?) I haven't researched that in any way, just popping a question.

Also-- isn't the phrase "Free Peoples", not "Good Peoples"?
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Old 07-23-2006, 12:56 PM   #5
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Galadriel's prophecy regarding Gimli seems to sum it up pretty well: hoarding. Gimli was free of it; gold runs through his hands but has no hold on him. Gold and mithril enslaved many Dwarven hearts; hence, evil. Thorin was in danger of it, but was saved in the end.
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Old 07-23-2006, 03:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
What's important is they were 'retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), so they remembered grudges or friendships. Which, I think could factor into whether dwarves fight with 'evil' or not.
-Boromir88
But I wonder about this. Why were there no grudges remembered from the time of the Last Alliance during the War of the Dwarves and Orcs? This was the question that basically launched my questioning in this area.

Quote:
They had succumbed, but they were able to maintain the appearance of normalcy.
-mark12_30
I think the principle involved between the Dwarf Houses was probably similar, at least as far as activities appearing "normal" to peoples far sundered from each other. Most of them were a long way apart. It would have been hard for them to know what the others were doing, even if they were all that interested in keeping tabs on each other.

However, I think there would have been a problem maintaining this appearance of normality over a long period of time, after all we are talking about a period of time stretching across several millennia. We know that the Dwarves visited each other from time to time. Sooner or later some Western Dwarves (probably Longbeards) were bound to go far enough East to see what the Stonefoots and Blacklocks were up to. I’m kind of curious as to how the Western Dwarves reacted when they saw what had happened.

Quote:
Also-- isn't the phrase "Free Peoples", not "Good Peoples"?
-mark12_30
True. I realize now that, given the nature of this topic, I should have provided a more specific definition of evil to give the topic a baseline.

Maybe something like “Acceptance of Melkorian influence and values and adopting them as a basic part of the culture.” I think this definition may hold some validity as it would exclude people like the Noldor who, while obviously influenced by Melkor, did not accept him as the source and inspiration for their culture. On the other hand, evil tribes of Men and the King’s Men in Númenor would qualify under this definition. I’m personally inclined to think, given their location and Tolkien’s implication, that some of the Eastern Dwarves probably did the same to some extent.

Of course, that also brings up the issue of how much of their original culture they retained. I think it is also safe to say that they probably did retain some of their original instruction from Aüle although it would have provided for an interesting mix of cultural influences, but no more odd than many we see in the real world.

Quote:
Gold and mithril enslaved many Dwarven hearts; hence, evil. Thorin was in danger of it, but was saved in the end.
-littlemanpoet
Also true that each individual had the potential for evil, I’m just curious about how this developed on a societal level.
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:30 PM   #7
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White Tree

Quote:
So did Saruman and Denethor even while they used the Palantiri. They had succumbed, but they were able to maintain the appearance of normalcy.~mark
The only physical signs Denethor had shown was aging, he looked older than he actually was:
Quote:
'In this way Denethor gained his great knowledge of things that passed into his realm, and far beyond his borders, at which men marvelled; but he bought the knowledge dearly, being aged before his time by his contest with the will of Sauron.~Appendix A: The Stewards
And Saruman was already in an old man's body, so I doubt he was physically different.

As far as any sort of other signs of abnormalcy, I can't think of anything anyone would have noticed. Saruman was able to lull and trick Radagast into fetching Gandalf, so he could put on a fair cloak and act 'normal' for Saruman.

And Denethor, no one seemed to know about his use of the palantir. While he went drastically down hill, that seemed to me to be more out of grief and despair. The palantir heightened and compounded his despair becuase of what Sauron had shown him, but Faramir's apparent death was what sent Denethor over the edge:
Quote:
Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son.~Unfinished Tales
It is noted also in UT that the palantir was a mental strain on Denethor, and contributed to his grimness, which hastened Finduilas' death:
Quote:
'The use of the palantiri was a mental strain, especially on men of later yeras not trained to the task, and no doubt in addition to his anxieties this strain contributed to Denethor's 'grimness'. It was probably felt earlier tby his wife than by others and increased her unhappiness, to the hastening of her death.'
So, as far as 'mental' signs Denethor became more grim (but that means he was already a 'grim' man before he looked into the palantir). He still was able to appear and look normal up until he believed Faramir had died, then he just lost his mind.
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Old 07-24-2006, 03:33 AM   #8
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Following up on an aside...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
And Denethor, no one seemed to know about his use of the palantir. While he went drastically down hill, that seemed to me to be more out of grief and despair. The palantir heightened and compounded his despair becuase of what Sauron had shown him, but Faramir's apparent death was what sent Denethor over the edge:

It is noted also in UT that the palantir was a mental strain on Denethor, and contributed to his grimness, which hastened Finduilas' death:

So, as far as 'mental' signs Denethor became more grim (but that means he was already a 'grim' man before he looked into the palantir). He still was able to appear and look normal up until he believed Faramir had died, then he just lost his mind.
An additional 'mental' sign may perhaps be that he came to see the entire conflict as Sauron versus himself; Gandalf was a troublemaker rather than a wise counsellor, and Aragorn was seen as an upstart rival for the throne rather than the rightful heir for whom Denethor was saving the throne. These are additional signs of how the palantir, under Sauron's control, had corrupted his mind. However, humans being what we are, Gandalf wouldn't necessarily see these things as signs of palantir use; it could be just a recalcitrant, bitter, and arrogant old man.

Okay, enough on this aside; back to the main theme....
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Old 07-24-2006, 09:20 PM   #9
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The vengeance of the Dwarves for Thrór is unmatched in Arda- even the vengeance of the Noldor for Finwë doesn't quite compare, in that it is only the Noldor, and not all the Eldar, who follow Fëanor into exile and revenge. With the Dwarves, Thráin has Dwarves of many (all?) houses at his back.
Very true.

Quote:
So checks and balances? Seems unlikely.
I also agree here. However, I'd have to say that I don't think checking the power of the ruler was really on any people's agenda.
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Old 07-25-2006, 12:14 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Kuruharan
I also agree here. However, I'd have to say that I don't think checking the power of the ruler was really on any people's agenda.
Not if he was bent on a self-destructive streak?
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Old 07-25-2006, 06:07 AM   #11
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Not if he was bent on a self-destructive streak?
That's a difficult question.

It would probably depend on what sort of self-destructive streak.
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Old 02-23-2016, 03:37 PM   #12
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I figure there was an economic component to their relationship with Orcs/Sauron. Sauron did not like them and wanted to dispossess them of the Seven due to Dwarven nature, but he could work with those he hated. He hated the Númenóreans for humbling him, but he did not mind having them as servants. I do not know what Sauron promised the Dwarves.
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:25 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Belegorn View Post
I figure there was an economic component to their relationship with Orcs/Sauron. Sauron did not like them and wanted to dispossess them of the Seven due to Dwarven nature, but he could work with those he hated. He hated the Númenóreans for humbling him, but he did not mind having them as servants. I do not know what Sauron promised the Dwarves.
Different things to different groups, I think.

The Longbeards on the whole didn't want anything to do with him. The Firebeards and Broadbeams were inconsiderable and largely out of reach.

The eastern houses had probably already fallen into evil of some kind even before Sauron's rise as the primary physical incarnation of evil, so working with them probably was not too difficult, at least comparatively speaking.
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Old 03-04-2016, 09:22 AM   #14
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Boots Reference to wicked dwarves in 'The Hobbit'

After goblins are first encountered in The Hobbit, Tolkien informs the reader that in some places 'wicked dwarves' made alliances with them.
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Old 05-11-2018, 05:06 AM   #15
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I do not think that there were "evil" Dwarves in Middle-Earth. We have to remember that the recorded history of Middle-Earth has largely an elvish perspective and from an elven point of view the Dwarves may seem sometimes "evil". The Dwarves are very strong-willed, pragmatic, not easily cowed or impressed and they protect their interests fiercely and aggressive; their way of life is also antithetical to a lot of (sindarin/silvan) elven practices (mining, industry, resource-extraction, etc.). It is no wonder then that the Elves would deem them somewhat "evil" or "wicked".

But another, more important point, is that the Dwarves simply have to be pragmatic and realist in their (political) approach to life in Middle-Earth. They can't flee to Valinor to Valar daddy and mommy if things get dicey. They are bound to Middle-Earth come what may and so are forced to make hard choices and compromises simply to survive! They are not immortal, they have no valinorean "safety ticket" or strength in numbers like the humans. The Dwarves simply can't afford to always take the moral high road like the Elves! So they make a deal with some orcish tribe thats in the way of a trade route OR they, surrounded by orcish tribes in the Misty Mountains, make an alliance with one of the tribes to improve their geopolitical position and make use of the orcish infighting OR they pay some tribute to Sauron in order to stay in his good graces OR they don't immediately rebuke a Messenger from Mordor (like Kind Dain in 3018) but instead ask for more time to think, and so on and so on. Thats a cautious, realist, diplomatic approach towards the cold, hard political reality of Middle-Earth It doesn't mean that they are "evil", they simply follow political necessities in order to survive as a rather small nation amidst a sea of enemies.

Tolkien is quite clear that, aside from those forced practical arrangements, that the Dwarves were never corrupted, i.e. they never became "evil". In the "Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn" he wrote about the War of the Elves and Sauron:

"In black anger he (Sauron) turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbors body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Saurons host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-Dum, and with them came Elves of Lorinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards ... and (Sauron) turned upon the Dwarves ... whom he drove back; but the gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Saurons hate, and all the Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might."

This is a bit contradictory; by "harry Dwarves" Tolkien probably meant "Dwarves of Durins Folk" because Sauron gave away rings to the other clans afterwards so he at least tried to subdue them "diplomatically" at first. Of course that failed, and the hatred he felt for Durins Folk must have been extended to all the other Dwarves as well.
We know that by the End of the Third Age he had recaptured 3 of the 7 Rings (probably through war): so its only logical to assume that at least by the time of the Third Age the relationship between Sauron and the rest of the Dwarven Clans was as broken as that between Sauron and Durins Folk. The fact that the Dwarves of ALL Seven Houses fought a massive war of annihilation against the Orcs of the Misty Mountains from III 2793-2999 is further proof that at least by the time of the late Third Age Sauron had absolutely no control over the Dwarves because the Annihilation of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains is clearly not in his interest.
Because of the close relationship between Eregion and Khazad-Dum the Dwarves of Moria also probably knew of the danger of their Ring and (just like the Elves) never wore it during the Second Age while Sauron had the One (so even IF the Dwarves of Moria could somehow be dominated through their ring, Sauron would not have been able to achieve that because they refused to wear it). And maybe they passed their knowledge on to the other Houses (i think thats rather likely).

Another Quote from "The Silmarillion", Chapter "Of the Rings of Power":

"The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of wich evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron."

So Sauron failed to directly dominate the Dwarves, he only profited indirectly. Maybe this wrath lead to infighting, or it was this greed that pushed the dwarves to dig ever deeper for mithril (and awaken/release the Balrog) and maybe this greed also lead to the massive wealth of Erebor that eventually attracted Smaug.
But while the Dwarven Rings indirectly lead to evil, the Dwarves certainly did not bow to Sauron or became his servants, they are just too stubborn and proud for that.

Another Quote from the same Chapter about the Battle of Dagorlad:

"Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron."

Even IF (big if) Sauron dominated the eastern Houses of the Dwarves during the Second Age, how come so few were willing to fight for him? I guess those few were either mercenaries/specialists that Sauron paid or small detachments sent for the aforementioned political/diplomatic reasons, a symbolic token gesture maybe. I dont think that those Dwarves fought "under" Sauron (like the Orcs and Men) but more "alongside" him. I find it hard to believe that they gave up their religion, worship of Mahal the Maker, and accepted Sauron as God-King.

Again: the Dwarves cant always take the moral high road of the Elves because they are not immortal and dont have a valinorean "safety ticket" that would allow them to fall back on the Valar. They have to live, stay and die in Middle-earth and are forced to compromise and make hard choices. That is not "evil" thats life! The Elves just don't "get it". Being totally "moral" is easy if you are immortal and can always flee the situation and leave for an otherworldly paradise!

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Old 05-11-2018, 06:53 AM   #16
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Just a few idle thoughts...

In some respects I actually think morally the Dwarves are more like the Elves, or at least the Noldor, than Men. Both Elves and Dwarves were capable of being evil without having a history of directly/willingly serving Morgoth or his followers. By contrast, all Men "fell" and did so by worshipping the Shadow. When the Noldor fell (both times), worship of the Shadow was not involved, despite collaboration with Sauron in the second fall.

Perhaps it depends upon how much room for neutrality there is in the spiritual struggle of Ëa, to neither support nor oppose the Shadow. Pragmatism does seem the appropriate word, as one cannot imagine the Dwarves in the East having much opportunity to act upon a presumably natural antipathy for Sauron. If "wicked Dwarves" made alliances with Orcs, for all we know that made it more difficult for Sauron to exert his control over those Orcs, which in the broader scheme may have brought about good.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:51 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by denethorthefirst View Post
I do not think that there were "evil" Dwarves in Middle-Earth. We have to remember that the recorded history of Middle-Earth has largely an elvish perspective and from an elven point of view the Dwarves may seem sometimes "evil". The Dwarves are very strong-willed, pragmatic, not easily cowed or impressed and they protect their interests fiercely and aggressive; their way of life is also antithetical to a lot of (sindarin/silvan) elven practices (mining, industry, resource-extraction, etc.). It is no wonder then that the Elves would deem them somewhat "evil" or "wicked".
Siding with the Melkorian forces to any extent from a moral standpoint is "evil" by definition in Middle-earth. It is heavily implied that dwarves did serve the Melkorian side in some cases.

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But another, more important point, is that the Dwarves simply have to be pragmatic and realist in their (political) approach to life in Middle-Earth. They can't flee to Valinor to Valar daddy and mommy if things get dicey. They are bound to Middle-Earth come what may and so are forced to make hard choices and compromises simply to survive! They are not immortal, they have no valinorean "safety ticket" or strength in numbers like the humans. The Dwarves simply can't afford to always take the moral high road like the Elves!

Tolkien is quite clear that, aside from those forced practical arrangements, that the Dwarves were never corrupted, i.e. they never became "evil"
I don't think that Tolkien would agree that survival is of ultimate importance but rather correct action is regardless of consequence. I'm not disagreeing that dwarves did such things, but I am saying that such actions would be inherently evil and corrupting.

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This is a bit contradictory; by "harry Dwarves" Tolkien probably meant "Dwarves of Durins Folk" because Sauron gave away rings to the other clans afterwards so he at least tried to subdue them "diplomatically" at first. Of course that failed, and the hatred he felt for Durins Folk must have been extended to all the other Dwarves as well.
I don't know that this necessarily follows. The context of the passage about the Longbeard assistance to Rivendell is, as you say, specific to the Longbeards. I think the passage should be interpreted as Sauron intensely hated Longbeards specifically and not all dwarves. This is not to say that Sauron didn't hate all dwarves. He hated everyone, but I don't think that passage supports the idea of Sauron having a special hatred of all dwarves based on that one incident.

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Even IF (big if) Sauron dominated the eastern Houses of the Dwarves during the Second Age, how come so few were willing to fight for him? I guess those few were either mercenaries/specialists that Sauron paid or small detachments sent for the aforementioned political/diplomatic reasons, a symbolic token gesture maybe.
Comparatively speaking, there may have been few eastern dwarves there to fight. Elsewhere I have speculated that even a very large number of dwarves might have seemed small when compared to the large numbers of men, elves, orcs, and other creatures assembled for the great battles of the Last Alliance.
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