Dwarves and the northern war of the rings

[Dain]

I'm inviting a little speculation by all you intelligent and astute BDers. In researching for a story, I've been looking over the tale of the Dwarves of Erebor relating to LotR, and noticed some strange things that I either can't explain or understand why it would happen.

1) What were they doing in the year between the first arrival of the black rider a the lonely mountain and when they finally sent Gloin to Rivendell? Why didn't they try to warn Bilbo sooner? They didn't even know that King Brand in Dale had been visited by a nazgul for a while, so apparently weren't even talking to their neighbours. A year seems a long time to sit on something like this...

2) Why would Gimli have had any hope of finding Balin in Moria, when they hadn't heard from them in years? Balin died 5 years after going, about 25 years before the council, and obviously they hadn't heard from them since his death, or they would know. 25 years of silence isn't very encouraging...

3) Why wouldn't Gandalf have explained to Dain or at least Thorin about Thror's ring? The Dwarves still think it might be in Moria, and didn't even know Thrain had it. Apparently, the rings were secretly passed on from father-to-heir, and Thorin never got it. Thrain went wandering and disappeared with it, and Gandalf found him in Dol Goldur, but never revealed that he had lost the ring then, apparently.

4) How do you think the third visit of the nazgul went? I can just picture good ol' Dain on the battlements giving that nasty old black rider the dwarven equivalent of "go tell your master he can kiss my..."

Anyway, I wondered if anyone had some thoughts, speculations or sources that I have overlooked. Cheers!

(wow, 50!)

[ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

[Kuruharan]

What were they doing in the year between the first arrival of the black rider a the lonely mountain and when they finally sent Gloin to Rivendell? Why didn't they try to warn Bilbo sooner?

Waiting for the other messages I suppose. They might have hoped to learn something.

They didn't even know that King Brand in Dale had been visited by a nazgul for a while, so apparently weren't even talking to their neighbours.

The way it is phrased is subject to interpretation. It might have been a long time it might not. And King Brand might not have been eager to reveal the messages.

Why would Gimli have had any hope of finding Balin in Moria, when they hadn't heard from them in years? Balin died 5 years after going, about 25 years before the council, and obviously they hadn't heard from them since his death, or they would know. 25 years of silence isn't very encouraging...

Hope dies hard.

Why wouldn't Gandalf have explained to Dain or at least Thorin about Thror's ring? The Dwarves still think it might be in Moria, and didn't even know Thrain had it. Apparently, the rings were secretly passed on from father-to-heir, and Thorin never got it. Thrain went wandering and disappeared with it, and Gandalf found him in Dol Goldur, but never revealed that he had lost the ring then, apparently.

Gandalf probably felt that the ring was beside the point. The dwarves could not get it back, and he probably did not have much contact with Dain after the events of The Hobbit. The matter probably did not come up in conversation.

How do you think the third visit of the nazgul went? I can just picture good ol' Dain on the battlements giving that nasty old black rider the dwarven equivalent of "go tell your master he can kiss my..."

I seriously doubt that Dain was quite that brusque about it.

[Legolas]

2) Why would Gimli have had any hope of finding Balin in Moria, when they hadn't heard from them in years? Balin died 5 years after going, about 25 years before the council, and obviously they hadn't heard from them since his death, or they would know. 25 years of silence isn't very encouraging...

That was part of the reason that brought Gloin and Gimli to Imladris in the first place.

[doug*platypus]

King Brand in Dale had been visited by a nazgul

Sorry? Please fill me in, I'm a little sketchy on this particular detail. Also, can you be sure that the messenger to Dáin was a Nazgûl? I thought that they first re-appeared in public only when the Bridge of Osgiliath was temporarily wrested from Gondor?

As for Gimli's hope that Balin was still alive, messengers can go astray, especially in those dangerous times, and it would be entirely possible that Khazad-Dûm was still populated, even though their kinfolk up north hadn't heard from them.

Gandalf not telling anyone about Thráin's Ring is a tricky one. When did he actually know for sure that the Ring had been taken from him? I can't recall, but I don't think Thráin mentioned it at the time, and that it was a later guess of Gandalf's.

John Howe's version of Sauron's messenger to the Dwarves.

[Dain]

That was part of the reason that brought Gloin and Gimli to Imladris in the first place.

Right, that makes sense. But, still why wait so long?

Doug, Gloin says something like "and then we learned that the Black Rider had visited Dale" or somesuch (I don't have FotR on me, for various annoying reasons). It just seemed like it took a while to find out, while you'd think with the proximity of Dale to the mountain, they'd share news of such an ominous stranger.

It was a nazgul, it could only be one from the discription. It doesn't seem to match the timeline, though, does it? When did the nine first go abroad? Perhaps they exaggerated their "year"...

I'm trying to set my story in the time between this and the battle at Erebor, so I was just trying to imagine what the Dwarves were doing. A year isn't that long for a patient dwarf, though, I guess...

[Manwe Sulimo]

It was a nazgul, it could only be one from the discription

You mean from the "black rider" quote? Remember, the Nazgûl weren't actually "black riders"; they were "disguised as riders in black" specifically for their trip to the Shire. Who says that the messenger couldn't have been the Mouth of Sauron or some other lackey?

Brand probably kept it secret, to mull over and figure what it meant about the future. Other human leaders have been known to do that (*cough* Denethor *cough*).

[burrahobbit]

they were "disguised as riders in black" specifically for their trip to the Shire.

Really?

[Angry Hill Troll]

Gandalf not telling anyone about Thráin's Ring is a tricky one. When did he actually know for sure that the Ring had been taken from him? I can't recall, but I don't think Thráin mentioned it at the time, and that it was a later guess of Gandalf's.

Actually Thrain did speak of the Ring, but did not tell Gandalf who he was (The Quest of Erebor in UT)

...I had entered Dol Guldor in disguise, and had found there an unhappy dwarf lying in the pits. I had no idea who he was. He had a map that had belonged to Durin's folk in Moria, and a key that seemed to go with it, though he was too far gone to explain it. And he said that he had posessed a great Ring.
"Nearly all his ravings were of that. The last of the Seven he said over and over again...
"Now [meeting Thorin some ninety years later] I remembered it all again, and it seemed clear that I had heard the last words of Thráin the Second, though he did not name himself or his son; and Thorin, of course, did not know what had become of his father, nor did he even mention 'the last of the Seven Rings.'

It's not clear that Gandalf ever spoke to Thorin about Thráin's ring. The Quest of Erebor indicates the two had quite a strained relationship, and it was only with great reluctance that Thorin heeded Gandalf's admonition to send Bilbo with them. Since Gandalf was planning an attack on Dol Guldor at the same time, the last thing he would have wanted was for Thorin to forget all about retaking Erebor and instead trying to get his father's ring back.

Would Thorin have even known that his father had a Ring without Gandalf telling him? hmmmm...

[Dain]

Would Thorin have even known that his father had a Ring without Gandalf telling him? hmmmm...

I don't think he would have, and Gandalf never told him, or Dain, the tricksy, secretive old wizard. The rings were kept secret by the Kings of Durin's line until passed on to the next in line. Thror passed his to Thrain before he went to Moria and got his head chopped off, but Thrain chose to take it when he too went wandering in the wilderness, and lost it. That's for the UT reference--haven't read it, and am always looking for more bits on Dwarves. According to the LotR appendix, most of the Dwarves think Thror's ring is still in Moria somewhere, and Balin was hoping to recover it.

If Gandalf didn't recognize Thrain at the time, though, how did he get the map and key passed on to him--Thrain must have been a little more coherent than described in your UT passage, eh?

As for Black Riders, I really had no doubt that it was a nazgul when I read it--it hisses, and radiates fear just like the black riders in the shire, and if it hadn't been a nazgul I don't think JRRT would have described it so similarly. I agree, I don't have the passage on me (curses!) but I was sure it was a real nazgul. When did they cross the ford of wherever?

And we Dwarves are hardy folk, of course. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

[doug*platypus]

I think the Seven Rings were common enough knowledge, at least amongst Erebor's in crowd. Isn't it Gimli that says each of the Great Hoards of old had at their foundation a Ring of Power?

I would hazard a guess that yes, Thorin did know about his father possessing a Ring of Power, and also knew that it had been borne by the ruler of Durin's House ever since that nice Annatar fellow gave it to them. The passing on of a Dwarf Ring is a whole 'nother kettle of fissh.

Would the bearer have the strength of will to pass it on to the next generation? Or would Thráin have removed it from Thrór's still-warm finger when he died? Did they lengthen lifespan the way that the rings of the Nazgûl did? Or did the Dwarves never wear them, preferring to remain visible? And how cool is that John Howe picture??

[Dain]

From the appendix to RotK:

Years afterwards Thror, now old, poor and desperate, gave to his son Thrain the one great treasure he still possessed, the last of the Seven Rings and then went away...

Even had he had it, the ring couldn't have been removed from his cold, dead hands, as he was killed in Moria and mutilated and fed to the crows.

But the possessors of the ring did not display it or speak of it, and they seldom surrendered it until near death, so that others did not know for certain whence it was bestowed. Some thought it had remained...in the secret tombs of the kings...but...the kindred of Durin Heir believed (wrongly) that Thror had worn it when he rashly returned there.

So, they don't know where it is, and only the closest to Thror would really know he had it. It was the first of the Seven.

Though [dwarves] could be slain or borken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.

So, there's another question. Sorry about all the quotes now, I just thought I'd insert some textual evidence to back up what I was saying.

The John Howe picture is very cool. I don't think Dwarven rings--like the elven ones--turned their wearer invisible. That was just a convenient power of the one--not that it worked on Sauron. I wonder if Tolkien regretted that at all...

[Angry Hill Troll]

If Gandalf didn't recognize Thrain at the time, though, how did he get the map and key passed on to him

Thráin simply gave Gandalf the map and key, without Gandalf having any idea of what they were or who Thráin was.

But he gave the map and the key to me. 'For my son,' he said; and then he died, and soon after I escaped myself. I stowed the things away, and by some warning of my heart I kept them always with me, safe, but soon almost forgotten.

Then it dawns on Gandalf 90 years later when he is talking to Thorin:

I had the plan and the key of the secret entrance to Erebor...And I had kept them, though without any design of my own, until the moment when they would prove most useful.

Hmmm, Gandalf sure has that serendipity thing down! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

In a different (but similar) version of the story, Gandalf adds regarding the map and key, that

[Thráin] had been in pits of Dol Guldur for five years at least. I do not know how he endured so long, nor how he had kept these things hidden through all his torments. I think that the Dark Power had desired nothing from him except the Ring only...A small oversight; but it proved fatal. Small oversights often do.

Question: Who thinks Gandalf had Narya with him during his visit to Dol Guldur? Or did he drop it off with Galadriel (probably the prudent thing to do?). I think it would have annoyed Sauron to no end if he later discovered that one of the Three Rings was (briefly) right under his nose! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Balin999]

It was a nazgul, it could only be one from the discription. It doesn't seem to match the timeline, though, does it?

Actually I'm not very sure about this. When Gloin tells his tale he cites the messenger who says "For Sauron knows" and "as a small token of your friendship Sauron asks this"
I can't remember any person being it a wraith or human in Sauron's service who was permitted to speak Sauron's name except The Mouth of Sauron. I think it is possible that the Mouth was sent to the dwarves, because the Nazgul were not rhetorical experts I think. And a real human would appear more trustful to the dwarves, if any servant of Sauron can appear trustful.

[lore_master]

i think the ring, turned Sauron visible, it was a sort of reverse affect it had the power to turn a miar, who was in his true form invisible to mortal eyes, visible

i think [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Not terribly articulate, loremaster, [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] but apart from that I think you're slightly off... Sauron was, in the War of the Ring, in a rather weakened state. His many deaths had drained him, and he had crystallised a lot of his power into the Ring. He was largely just an intellect -- a huge, psionically-able intellect -- with only a vague physical form. The flame, the Eye of Barad-dur, seems to have been his favourite physical manifestation, although it is probably, I think, that some weakish physical humanoid form was in his power to attain. It was really just the power of his thought that made him terrible, then. Once he had attained his Ring again, his gain in power would be huge, not only would the already considerable force of his intellect increase but his physical manifestation would become hugely more powerful.
It was on the drained Sauron only, not simply any Maia, that this effect would have taken place. The Ring gave him his own power back.

I think it was probably a Ringwraith that visited the Dwarves in Erebor. Quite possibly from Dol Guldor, as it was closer -- there were three there, so it could have been either one of them. It would not have taken that long to ride up, for they had fast horses at their disposal. That he supposedly used Sauron's name may either have been a discrepancy in the retelling by Gloin, or else perhaps simply to be clear and not over-flattering of his Lord when talking to the Dwarves. Sauron, I am sure, would have given free reign to the Nazgul to decide on these things for themselves -- they were his most trusted servants and agents, he knew they were devoted to him, they were not the scum that made up his rank-and-file.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Dain

4) How do you think the third visit of the nazgul went? I can just picture good ol' Dain on the battlements giving that nasty old black rider the dwarven equivalent of "go tell your master he can kiss my...

Let's say that the Dwarves were able to trick the messenger into 'paying up.' Now, I know that the Dwarves would not have provided information to the Enemy regarding Bilbo, and the chances of the Messenger of the Base Master of Treachery aka Sauron giving them a Ring even if they did was zero, but what if...

Knowing what they knew then, that the Rings were tricksy, and though they bred gold, bred ill much more, would they have taken a Ring, and if so, would they have made use of it?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

Knowing what they knew then, that the Rings were tricksy, and though they bred gold, bred ill much more, would they have taken a Ring, and if so, would they have made use of it?

I have no doubt they would have used it. Balin had gone to Moria in the hope of finding the Last of the Seven, taking along a good portion of Dáin's people. Glóin was rather dismayed to learn it had been taken from Thráin by Sauron. I don't think the Dwarves ascribed many of their woes to the Seven.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I have no doubt they would have used it. Balin had gone to Moria in the hope of finding the Last of the Seven, taking along a good portion of Dáin's people. Glóin was rather dismayed to learn it had been taken from Thráin by Sauron. I don't think the Dwarves ascribed many of their woes to the Seven.

In this regard, I have always thought it a little strange that Gandalf failed to tell the Dwarves that he found Thrain in Dol Goldur. This was years before the adventure with Smaug...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Balin had gone to Moria in the hope of finding the Last of the Seven, taking along a good portion of Dáin's people.

One note at least to this: as for somebody wondering why did Balin go to Moria in search for the Ring, Balin was among the last who have seen Thráin alive, he was with him when he disappeared from the camp. And so, he of all people was probably prone to believe, even if others would have told him that he's not going to find any ring in Moria (of course, it'll be a difference, Gandalf never told him personally, though who knows if he would believe even then...) - because "Come on, I was there personally with Thráin until his last moments, I haven't seen that he would have had any Ring!"

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

One note at least to this: as for somebody wondering why did Balin go to Moria in search for the Ring, Balin was among the last who have seen Thráin alive, he was with him when he disappeared from the camp. And so, he of all people was probably prone to believe, even if others would have told him that he's not going to find any ring in Moria (of course, it'll be a difference, Gandalf never told him personally, though who knows if he would believe even then...) - because "Come on, I was there personally with Thráin until his last moments, I haven't seen that he would have had any Ring!"

I think that last bit is rather weak!
Surely Balin would not discart the words of Gandalf as nonsense so easily. I know dwarves can be stubborn, but if Gandalf had told Balin that he knew for a fact that the ring was lost and he could present a reasonable case, then surely Balin would belive him. After all Balin seemed rather resonable. (Atleast to me)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I think that last bit is rather weak!
Surely Balin would not discart the words of Gandalf as nonsense so easily. I know dwarves can be stubborn, but if Gandalf had told Balin that he knew for a fact that the ring was lost and he could present a reasonable case, then surely Balin would belive him. After all Balin seemed rather resonable. (Atleast to me)

He seemed so to me too (though his decision to go to Moria was one of the weaker ones). But I wasn't referring to Gandalf then (that was in the brackets - I said that he would likely follow Gandalf had Gandalf told him, though "who knows") - I was referring to perhaps other Dwarves, like Dáin or somebody, who would be wise and telling Balin that it's unlikely to find the Ring in Moria.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I have no doubt they would have used it. Balin had gone to Moria in the hope of finding the Last of the Seven, taking along a good portion of Dáin's people. Glóin was rather dismayed to learn it had been taken from Thráin by Sauron. I don't think the Dwarves ascribed many of their woes to the Seven.

Note that Balin went off some 25-30 years before the Council of Elrond. Any chance that the Dwarves reconsidered the use of Rings between then and then? And were those that stayed with Dain (as opposed to those that went off with Balin) counted amongst 'the faithful' in that they chose not to attempt to secure wealth by unnatural means?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

Note that Balin went off some 25-30 years before the Council of Elrond. Any chance that the Dwarves reconsidered the use of Rings between then and then? And were those that stayed with Dain (as opposed to those that went off with Balin) counted amongst 'the faithful' in that they chose not to attempt to secure wealth by unnatural means?

Glóin could be thought of as 'faithful', and he posited that the Seven could be used for good against Sauron.

Other rings there may be, less treacherous that might be used in our need. The Seven are lost to us--if Balin has not found the ring of Thrór, which was the last; naught has been heard of it since Thrór perished in Moria.

And this after he had sat through much of the Council of Elrond and had been told the history of the Great Rings. He knew Sauron's influence on the Seven was considerable, but still he lamented the loss of Thrór's ring.

'Ah, alas!' cried Glóin. When will the day come of our revenge?'

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Glóin could be thought of as 'faithful', and he posited that the Seven could be used for good against Sauron.

That's what is stated, and we can interpret as you intend, but not sure how he or the Dwarves meant to use a Dwarven Ring against Sauron. They may have been able to breed gold, but don't see how that would have been much use in this war.

Another way of interpreting what Glóin meant is that he stated the obvious - the Dwarves had no Rings to kick into the war, but maybe others, such as his hosts, had some that might be useful. Think that he was being political.

And this after he had sat through much of the Council of Elrond and had been told the history of the Great Rings. He knew Sauron's influence on the Seven was considerable, but still he lamented the loss of Thrór's ring.

Glóin may have been like the rest of his race, somewhat overly possessive and slow in forgetting even the smallest grievance.