Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Second

[Kuruharan]

This may seem more like an encyclopedia article than a discussion topic, but everyone can at least tell me how wrong I am…

I was just thumbing through The Silmarillion and something obvious finally dawned on me. The Dwarves were aware of the existence of the Elves well before they inhabited the Blue Mountains and crossed over into Beleriand and had their first “official meeting.” The Dwarves must have known about the Avari for a long time before they (the Dwarves) went west (you always have to specify who you are talking about when things are going west). The Petty-Dwarves had some sort of cultural memory of them, to judge from Mîm’s words (I say cultural memory because I doubt that Mîm had ever actually met one of the “Wild Elves” that he refers to in regard to them not knowing about earth bread…although, perhaps I should not assume that. Mîm might have been a great traveler in his younger days). If the Petty-Dwarves knew about Wild Elves, it is only natural to assume the rest of the Dwarves knew of them as well, especially considering how long the Dwarves inhabited the same areas as the Avari. In fact, contact could have been made fairly early on in Dwarven cultural existence. Although, it is a bit difficult to see what sort of interaction the Dwarves would have had with the Avari. Two more dissimilar cultures it would be hard to imagine, the Dwarves with their society based essentially on mining and commerce and the Avari with their society based on meandering about aimlessly and singing silly songs at the top of their voices. In fact, the Dwarves are referred to as fighting against the Avari, which seems likely enough.

Anyway, the point is that the “amazement” that filled the Elves upon meeting the Dwarves was all on one side. The Dwarves had to have known about Elves already, and may have known that at some point a whole bunch of them had gone off west looking for some funny flashing lights. The Dwarves were probably expecting to find more Elves on the other side of the Blue Mountains. If they were surprised about anything, they were probably surprised about the level of cultural development the Sindar had achieved as all the other Elves they’d ever met were little more than tramps.

The more one studies, the more one gains the impression that the Elves were the ones blundering naively about the world while the Dwarves were the enlightened and experienced cultural sophisticates.

It is also interesting to note that the Dwarves seemed to have more contact with the Avari than the Sindar because it is the Dwarves to relate to Thingol that the Avari are being driven out of the plains and into the hills by Morgoth’s creatures.

[Raynor]

In Appendix B, Elvish names for the Dwarves, Quendi Eldar, it is stated that elves hunted the petty dwarves, considering them to be strange animals, not Incarnates. Their later amazement is probably due to realising that the petty dwarves were of the same race with the more cultured great ones. Seeing their initial behaviour, they probably met these ousted dwarves firstly.

[Kuruharan]

they probably met these ousted dwarves firstly.

Yes.

It seems odd that the Petty-Dwarves made no attempt to talk to the Elves even when they were trussed up and roasting on a spit.

I assume everybody does realize that the Elves probably barbequed and ate the Petty-Dwarves that they killed. I mean, why else do you hunt, and the Elves don't seem big on wanton slaughter of anything. The second factor in particular probably goes a long way to explaining the "great offense" of the Dwarves and why they never got on well with the Sindar.

It is a bit ironic (or symmetrical) that the higher cultures of Elves and Dwarves (as they existed on Middle-earth at the time, since the highest Elven cultures were not present) both first made contact with the outcast or more primitive subset of the other.

[the phantom]

I assume everybody does realize that the Elves probably barbequed and ate the Petty-Dwarves that they killed. I mean, why else do you hunt

To kill.

and the Elves don't seem big on wanton slaughter of anything

One word- ORCS.

[Kuruharan]

To kill.

Why?

One word- ORCS.

Nobody knew about orcs at that point.

[Raynor]

I mean, why else do you hunt, and the Elves don't seem big on wanton slaughter of anything.

According to the same source, some petty dwarves attacked the Eldar by stealth at night.

[the phantom]

Nobody knew about orcs at that point.

My point about Orcs was that, contrary to your statement, Elves DO wantonly slaughter entire races without regard to "Is this orc different from the others?" and other such moral qualms.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Nobody knew about orcs at that point.

Depends which version of history regarding the origin of the Orks that you suscribe to. Tolkien certainly leaves the door wide open there- and if memory serves, there is one reference to Ork (linguistically) being derived in Elvish from primitive Elven menaces in the days of the Great March and earlier.

And, if one decides that Orks came from Elves (and so were probably distorted by Morgoth prior to his Ages of imprisonment), then there may indeed have been Orks abroad (albeit in small numbers) for the Sindar to know and kill.

And, the Petty-Dwarves being two-legged, upright, and unlovely by Elven standards... who's to say that they wouldn't have been taken for Orks?

[Kuruharan]

This is missing the point again -- namely, that simple tool-building (even if we suppose that the Petty-Dwarves retained some skill in this art) isn't enough to distinguish Incarnate from not.

I don't believe that making implements from more than one material qualifies as "simple tool-making." If the Petty-Dwarf weapons were made out of iron that in no way qualifies as simple tool-making, but any metal at all would qualify.

Orcs, for instance, weren't animals in the sense that we think of animals -- but were presumably ripe for being made Elvish pincushions of whenever and wherever they were encountered. I would imagine the Elves progressed rapidly from their evaluation of "cunning two-legged animals" to "believing them to be related to Orcs and creatures of Morgoth" (if indeed there was any meaningful difference between the two evaluations for them).

I don't think that by this point the Elves had enough experience with orcs to make this leap. Even if one assumes a very early date for orcish creation, Elves will have encountered genuine orcs only a couple of times by this point in their history.

In any case, the implication seems to be that the Petty-Dwarves lived "in caves" like animals, or at least like Orcs.

While Mim's standard of living probably wasn't the best, it certainly seemed better than some of the Men that were knocking about at the time. I just don't think that the Elves really knew that much about it.

There isn't much evidence to support the notion of Petty-Dwarves as only slightly less sophisticated than the great Dwarves.

Oh, I don't know. Mim's house was probably similar to the family mansions of most dwarf families in the great cities...only writ small and empty. Dwarves being as stubborn as they are, the Petty-Dwarf way of life probably didn't change much even after they stopped being hunted.

Tolkien never brought this Petty-Dwarf stuff into a finished, consistent form.

I think the easiest way to ultimately reconcile this is A) This probably didn't happen very much or last very long B) the Elves were not very swift in analyzing the evidence in front of them.

[Formendacil]

Although you make some good points regarding Mîm, Kuru, I think it should be noted that the point in history that Mîm lived in was well after the Elves and the Dwarves met, discussed the Petty-Dwarves, and agreed to stop eating them.

To be serious, although I can easily imagine Mîm's predecessor's inhabited the caves of Narog and Amon Rûdh at a very early date, I'm not sure that we can ascribe to these Pre-First Contact Petty-Dwarves a standard of living comparable to their latter-day descendent.

[Kuruharan]

I'm not sure that we can ascribe to these Pre-First Contact Petty-Dwarves a standard of living comparable to their latter-day descendent.

Why not? Tolkien always pictured things as declining over time and he said that the Petty-Dwarves' smithcraft declined over time.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Why not? Tolkien always pictured things as declining over time and he said that the Petty-Dwarves' smithcraft declined over time.

But he also pictured them building up over time... and I see no reason to think that the Petty-Dwarves' "Golden Age" was as early as the days when they were being hunted for dinner. Far more likely to have occurred AFTER the Sindar stopped hunting them, and before Morgoth and the Noldor returned to start gobbling up the real estate.

[Raynor]

I also think that we are missapplying our standards on what is a rational soul and what is an animal. Many kelvar behave inteligently, to a degree that in unparalled in our world; and they also speak . Therefore, (regardless of aspect) though we may qualify some beings as having a fea, based on speech and behaviour, the Men/Elves would probably require more qualifiers.