Are orcs actually evil? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Letty · 05-26-2006, 08:54 PM

Are orcs actually evil?
Tolkien represents them as filthy,nasty,evil creatures and the elves as beautiful and wonderful,but is that the truth?

Boromir88 · 05-27-2006, 07:21 AM

They were made in mockery of the Elves and were puppet-slaves (because of fear for) Morgoth and Sauron. Despite how "evil" they were, Tolkien liked to think that even Orcs weren't beyond redemption:

Quote:

They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote ’irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimatly good.)~Letter #153

ninja91 · 05-27-2006, 08:03 AM

They are evil, because that is what they were created to be. Morgoth made orcs for the sole purpose of having an army of evil minions, basically. Of course, nothing is beyond redemption (besides osama). I think that even orcs could be good, but I also think that they would resist the attempt. Also, I dont think all elves are good. They are a "pure" race, but not without faults. Put this question down to ask Tolkien once you go to heaven.

Tuor of Gondolin · 05-30-2006, 06:01 AM

I like to think orcs had the potential for redemption,
as JRRT suggests in Letters . And he specifically
notes that elves "were not entirely in the right"
in that same book. The classic conflicted elf, to me, is Maedhros.
The surviving Third Age elves had both learned to temper their
arrogance, and also most of them were basically "refusenik"
elves who had declined to go to Valinor.

One example of orcs showing companionship and
cameraderie was Rosenkrantz and Gilderstern (Gorbag
and Shagrat), who seem in the past to have been
fairly successful entrepreneurs---and perhaps their
quarrel was as much due to the baleful influence of the
Ring as orc testiness.

Letty · 05-31-2006, 08:09 PM

Hey ninja 91,I am not so sure I am going to heaven

But if I do and if I meet Tolkien there,I`ll ask him all the things I want to know...

mormegil · 05-31-2006, 11:05 PM

It's an odd question that we've spoken about before. To what extent are the orcs responsible for their actions? Are they always taught to hate and kill elves, men and dwarves? If they grow up believing this to be correct and were never taught contrary and are more or less forces into this are they responsible? No I don't think they are wholly responsible. I don't have the exact quote but I remember that Melkor creating the orcs was one of the greatest, if not the greatest, crime he committed. I think most of the culpability rests in him.

For example a parent has a child and teaches him a concept that most would view as 'evil' but the child is never exposed to the truth and is never shown the error of his ways. Is he responsible for errant actions? I would say no! It doesn't seem just to say that a being is responsible for adhering to a principle it has never learned.

05-30-2006, 06:01 AM	#4
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	I like to think orcs had the potential for redemption, as JRRT suggests in Letters . And he specifically notes that elves "were not entirely in the right" in that same book. The classic conflicted elf, to me, is Maedhros. The surviving Third Age elves had both learned to temper their arrogance, and also most of them were basically "refusenik" elves who had declined to go to Valinor. One example of orcs showing companionship and cameraderie was Rosenkrantz and Gilderstern (Gorbag and Shagrat), who seem in the past to have been fairly successful entrepreneurs---and perhaps their quarrel was as much due to the baleful influence of the Ring as orc testiness. __________________ Aure Entuluva!

05-31-2006, 08:09 PM	#5
Letty Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 48	Hey ninja 91,I am not so sure I am going to heaven But if I do and if I meet Tolkien there,I`ll ask him all the things I want to know... __________________ Ash to ash Dust to dust Fade to black I will have my vengeance-in this life or the next

05-31-2006, 11:05 PM	#6
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,648	It's an odd question that we've spoken about before. To what extent are the orcs responsible for their actions? Are they always taught to hate and kill elves, men and dwarves? If they grow up believing this to be correct and were never taught contrary and are more or less forces into this are they responsible? No I don't think they are wholly responsible. I don't have the exact quote but I remember that Melkor creating the orcs was one of the greatest, if not the greatest, crime he committed. I think most of the culpability rests in him. For example a parent has a child and teaches him a concept that most would view as 'evil' but the child is never exposed to the truth and is never shown the error of his ways. Is he responsible for errant actions? I would say no! It doesn't seem just to say that a being is responsible for adhering to a principle it has never learned. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

05-26-2006, 08:54 PM	#1
Letty Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 48	Are orcs actually evil? Are orcs actually evil? Tolkien represents them as filthy,nasty,evil creatures and the elves as beautiful and wonderful,but is that the truth?