Grima and the Army of Isengard - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ninja91 · 05-22-2006, 11:05 AM

In the movie of the Two Towers, there is something I am curious about. When Grima (with Saruman) first look at the Army of Isengard from a balcony on Orthanc, tears begin to fall from Grima's eyes. Does anyone know why this is?
Thank you!

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 05-22-2006, 12:07 PM

I seem to remember talking about this when the film first came out. A number of people saw it as being a horrifying moment of realisation for Grima. Seeing this bloodthirsty army and its intent to kill humans forced him to confront his own humanity.

In other words, he felt slightly guilty when he actually saw what Saruman was up to.

Anguirel · 05-22-2006, 12:12 PM

I like the explanation Eomer's given.

But as I recall, rather less imaginatively, PJ included it as a reference to some Nazi film where supporters wept tears of joy as they saw the armies of the Fuhrer pass by.

I don't find that nearly as interesting, though.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 05-22-2006, 12:21 PM

I don't remember hearing that, Ang. But now that you bring it up...

I don't like it either. Considering Grima's real hatred of Saruman, it doesn't seem too likely that he would weep tears of joy for the wizard's near-certain victory.

mormegil · 05-22-2006, 12:27 PM

Allergies perhaps or the overwhelming stench of tens of thousands of orcs rising up.

So you don't believe that Grima was past feeling? If so why would he have betrayed Rohan and his former master even though he was shown mercy?

Anguirel · 05-22-2006, 12:38 PM

The Nazi stuff-as interpreted by Brad Douriff-

Well, Fran’s a genius, ya know? I think it was something that really came organically out the direction that we were going. I kind of hooked into that probably when he was young he was picked on, and that he really was perfect bait for Saruman the White. And was someone who could really never have the things he needed the most. So I think the idea was that this was somebody who fell into a dark hole and kind of wakes up in the middle looking at the “Triumph of the Will”. Which is really what he goes out and really looks at what Hitler saw when they did “Triumph of the Will”. This incredibly awesome horde that was about to be unleashed. Have you ever seen “Triumph of the Will”? For those of you who didn’t.. you guys should see this… this is a movie of Adolph Hitler’s Nazi Party, that did this festival every year in Nuremburg. This movie is a documentary, but it really gives you the power of this whole nation being consumed by this weird strength in each other’s numbers that was to unleash in this horrible war, and you can feel it in this movie. And the arrangement of the troops in “The Two Towers” was a purposeful rip off of this... because it was a defining moment just before WWII. And the documentary is called “Triumph of the Will” because it is the triumph of Adolf Hitler’s will.

Then again I think Brad Douriff has also been quoted as replying in a way more aligned with Eomer's subtler answer. Rumour has it Fran Walsh wanted "overjoyed Nazi" but Douriff considered "mourning human".

alatar · 05-22-2006, 12:38 PM

Eowyn was human.

With the waxing of Saruman Grima may rise to be a tin-plated King, but just who will his subjects/consorts/Queen be?

Sometimes just when you've gotten your wish you wish that you hadn't made one.

05-22-2006, 11:05 AM	#1
ninja91 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Chozo Ruins. Posts: 421	Grima and the Army of Isengard In the movie of the Two Towers, there is something I am curious about. When Grima (with Saruman) first look at the Army of Isengard from a balcony on Orthanc, tears begin to fall from Grima's eyes. Does anyone know why this is? Thank you!

05-22-2006, 12:07 PM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I seem to remember talking about this when the film first came out. A number of people saw it as being a horrifying moment of realisation for Grima. Seeing this bloodthirsty army and its intent to kill humans forced him to confront his own humanity. In other words, he felt slightly guilty when he actually saw what Saruman was up to. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

05-22-2006, 12:12 PM	#3
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	I like the explanation Eomer's given. But as I recall, rather less imaginatively, PJ included it as a reference to some Nazi film where supporters wept tears of joy as they saw the armies of the Fuhrer pass by. I don't find that nearly as interesting, though. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

05-22-2006, 12:21 PM	#4
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I don't remember hearing that, Ang. But now that you bring it up... I don't like it either. Considering Grima's real hatred of Saruman, it doesn't seem too likely that he would weep tears of joy for the wizard's near-certain victory. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

05-22-2006, 12:27 PM	#5
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,648	Allergies perhaps or the overwhelming stench of tens of thousands of orcs rising up. So you don't believe that Grima was past feeling? If so why would he have betrayed Rohan and his former master even though he was shown mercy? __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

05-22-2006, 12:38 PM	#6
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	The Nazi stuff-as interpreted by Brad Douriff- Well, Fran’s a genius, ya know? I think it was something that really came organically out the direction that we were going. I kind of hooked into that probably when he was young he was picked on, and that he really was perfect bait for Saruman the White. And was someone who could really never have the things he needed the most. So I think the idea was that this was somebody who fell into a dark hole and kind of wakes up in the middle looking at the “Triumph of the Will”. Which is really what he goes out and really looks at what Hitler saw when they did “Triumph of the Will”. This incredibly awesome horde that was about to be unleashed. Have you ever seen “Triumph of the Will”? For those of you who didn’t.. you guys should see this… this is a movie of Adolph Hitler’s Nazi Party, that did this festival every year in Nuremburg. This movie is a documentary, but it really gives you the power of this whole nation being consumed by this weird strength in each other’s numbers that was to unleash in this horrible war, and you can feel it in this movie. And the arrangement of the troops in “The Two Towers” was a purposeful rip off of this... because it was a defining moment just before WWII. And the documentary is called “Triumph of the Will” because it is the triumph of Adolf Hitler’s will. Then again I think Brad Douriff has also been quoted as replying in a way more aligned with Eomer's subtler answer. Rumour has it Fran Walsh wanted "overjoyed Nazi" but Douriff considered "mourning human". __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

05-22-2006, 12:38 PM	#7
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Eowyn was human. With the waxing of Saruman Grima may rise to be a tin-plated King, but just who will his subjects/consorts/Queen be? Sometimes just when you've gotten your wish you wish that you hadn't made one. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.