Orcs... were elves?

[ninja91]

In the LOTR, there are a couple of differing views among the characters as to what the roots of the orcs are. Were they once elves? Or were they twisted beings made in mockery of them by Morgoth? There are alot of questions I have about LOTR, so if you guys would like to help me out that would be great!
Thanks!

[davem]

Short answer is that Tolkien altered his opinions on the subject. Originally they were corrupted Elves, but later he decided they were corrupted Men, or even a kind of organic 'robot'. During the period of LotR they were Elves but as with many things in the 'Legendarium' as he called it (ie the mythology as a whole) he altered & developed his ideas throughout his life.

This is one of those questions that would take an essay to answer in full, but the corrupted Elves idea was the one that Tolkien held to for most of his life, & the one that makes most sense in terms of the mythology.

EDIT

What you'll find with Tolkien's work is that the deeper you look into it for definitive answers the more you'll find confusions & contradictions. Only the main themes of the Legendarium found a fixed form - but the details & even some of the larger & more important ideas were subject to alteration - even published works like LotR & the Hobbit were revised after publication & changes were made.

Of course, if you want definitive answers you're in the wrong place - we like to argue too much here.

Word of warning - watch out for Lalwende - she's a troublemaker & will just get you into bother if you listen to her.

[Boromir88]

It really comes down to what you want to believe. It's clear that Tolkien's very LAST thoughts were that Orcs were taken in and corrupted men. But, Tolkien also played with the idea of Orcs coming form slime and rocks (which later he rejects), then it changes into being corrupted elves, and then switches all over the place. You can even make an argument that some orcs were Maiar that had taken an Orc form (Boldog for instance).

Let's start with the Elf theory. This occurs in the Silmarillion:

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.~Of the Coming of Elves

There are a few things about this quote...

1) First off just notice "little is known of a certainty..." therefor, it can already be tossed up into the air and debated endlessly.

2) Also notice "this is held true by the wise of Eressea..." Orcs being from corrupted elves is what the "Wise of Eressea," believe, it's not necessarily what Tolkien felt. As Tolkien tells us with Treebeard in Letter 153:

Treebeard is a character in my story not me; though he has a great memory and some earthly wisdom, he is not one of the wise and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.

The "Wise of Eressea" therefor, are characters in Tolkien and not necessarily what Tolkien feels about Orcs.

With that being said we do have this from HoME:

It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.~Morgoth's Ring, Myth's Transformed: Text VIII

So at this time (which is dated in 1955) Tolkien still felt like Orcs were originally started as Elves. And over the years as they began to mate with men and beasts the elvish blood-line diminished as well as their life span.

It's clear that in Tolkien's last thoughts he felt like Orcs would be best to be originated from corrupted Men, and if I'm not mistaken he even alters when Men first appear to fit this theory:

Let's first start out of The Annals of Aman (which is dated to be 1959 and also appears in Morgoth's Ring: Myth's transformed, Text X:

Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish

Tolkien continues on with the theory into Text X of Morgoth's Ring (1969):

Other originally independent creatures, and Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves) could be reduced to a like condition. But ’puppets’, with no independent life or will, would simply cease to move or do anything at all when the will of their maker was brought to nothing.

Tolkien talks about Orcs being nearly complete puppets, and here he says with Men they could be reduced this this form of "puppetness," but it is impossible for Dwarves or Elves to be reduced to this state.

So, that's pretty much all the information there is and it comes down to what matter do you want to believe. An argument for them originating from Men is easier, because those were Tolkien's final thoughts on the matter and he even goes as far as to want to change that idea. If you're like me, who believes in both ideas. However, it would be hard to hold to the theory that Orcs are and always were corrupted Elves.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've always just figured that since Morgoth was all about corruption and mockery that he would pretty much take whatever he could find, break it, and make it monstrous -- so I see no reason against having all the theories of orc origin at once. The orcs are a hybrid, bastard race drawn from ruined Elves, enslaved men, beasts, unnatural arts and perhaps another race (or races?) of beings that he found and took for his own. This might also help explain where there is such a diversity of forms, sizes, abilities, types and races among the orcs...

[davem]

Clearly the problem he had was that he was importing creatures from Faery into his secondary world, & had to make them 'fit'. Traditional Goblins were a race in their own right & had always been Goblins, never 'corrupted' versions of other beings.

In Tolkien's world, however, everything has its origin in Eru, who is, by His nature, purely Good. Hence, if evil exists in that world it has to have come from good & devolved or been corrupted in some way ('Evil is fissiparous, but cannot create'). So Tolkien has to find an explanation for the evil beings by having them devolve from something else or be mere 'robots' controlled by the mind & will of another being (Morgoth/Sauron).

Dwarves, by their nature, cannot really be corrupted in such a way, so it would have to be Elves or Men. Men causes a problem 'philosophically' as Orcs seem to be 'supernatural' beings, inhabitants of Faery, which Men really are not. Elves becoming Orcs solves this problem, but its clear that Tolkien liked his Elves too much & was increasingly uncomfortable with them being corrupted in that way.

Of course, Elves are 'angelic' beings & Orcs could fit well into the Fallen Angel/demon role.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

The orcs are a hybrid, bastard race drawn from ruined Elves, enslaved men, beasts, unnatural arts and perhaps another race (or races?) of beings that he found and took for his own. This might also help explain where there is such a diversity of forms, sizes, abilities, types and races among the orcs...

Could there even be Hobbit derived Orcses? Such an Orc might be a narfforc - only he can answer that one.

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, Elves are 'angelic' beings & Orcs could fit well into the Fallen Angel/demon role.

Now davem has been cheeky about me and I no longer have the opportunity to sneak something nasty in his evening meal I shall just argue with him. I'm not at all sure we could call Elves 'angelic beings' at all. They are symbolic of men as they might be, but not divine. The only Elves who might even approach being Divine are the Eldar, and I am not even sure about them to be honest. Arda already has the Valar and Maiar, just how many angelic beings can it hold?

I also like the idea that Orcs are bred from several races, as it does allow for the many varieties. But if they were descended from Elves it also makes for a lot of interesting possibilities - e.g. could the Elvish nature be entirely taken form them? Were they immortal? What happened when they died? etc.

Possibly the reason Tolkien gradually shied away from having his Orcs derive from Elves was his semmingly growing need to make his work more 'divine', as shown in his later rewrites of Galadriel's character and nature. I happen to think that he had it right with LOTR. The Orcs being descended from Elves does not diminish Elves, rather it makes a greater tragedy that these beings could be reduced to such an existence. I suppose in that sense, if they were angelic then it would deepen that tragedy even more.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I also like the idea that Orcs are bred from several races, as it does allow for the many varieties. But if they were descended from Elves it also makes for a lot of interesting possibilities - e.g. could the Elvish nature be entirely taken form them? Were they immortal? What happened when they died? etc.

Only Orks with pureblooded Elven ancestry (tormented by Morgoth or no) would be immortal. Tolkien stated, with regards to Half-Elves, that they were inherently mortal, sharing the Gift of Men. Only those to whom the Choice was given: Eärendil, Elwing, Elrond, and Elros had a choice. The default setting was mortality, and so Dior, Elured, and Elurin died indeed and are gone beyond the circles of the World. It can also be taken as an explanation for why the Elven-choosing next generation of the family: Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen, were given a Choice, whereas the Sons of Elros were stuck with their father's lot.

It therefore follows that part-Elf Orks would not have been Immortal. They would likely have inherited many other Elvish traits and there would certainly have been great enmity between Elf and Ork, but unless an Ork was of pure "Elvish" ancestry, he (or she) would not have been immortal within the circles of the world.

[ninja91]

Letty, Saruman explained that orcs were once elves to Lurtz in the movie, not the book. So I dont know if that is valid...
Lurtz did not exist in Tolkien's books, that is what I am trying to say. And we all know PJ had his filming faults.

[Gil-Galad]

Melkor made orcs as a mockery of the elves, he made trolls as a mockery of the ents, he made dragons as a mockery of the eagles...

and don't beleive everything the movie said...

[Mänwe]

Gil-Galad, quite! Well said in part.
Raynor will you continue the discussion?

Anyone else is welcome too of course!!

[Galadriel]

I do not know if this has already been mentioned, but in TTT Aragorn refers to the Men from Isengard as 'half-Orcs'. Not sure if that helps, but I thought I'd just post it.

[Inziladun]

More food for thought on this topic.

I'm leaning toward the idea that "specialist" Orc-breeds might have been partly derived from the blood of Men, but I'm nearly positive Elves were the foundation of the "basic" Orc.

In addition to things already said above in this thread and others, I note that Elves were from their beginning immune from disease.

Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them.

Silm Of Men

I think it's reasonable that Morgoth would have known that about the Elves. After all, he was a Vala.

Now, deliberate disease infection was used by Morgoth in the First Age, I believe, as a "terror weapon" against the Men of northern Beleriand. One of the casualties was Túrin's sister, Urwen, called Lalaith.

....when [Lalaith] was three years old there came a pestilence to Hithlum, borne on an evil wind out of Angband, and she died.

Silm Of Túrin Tarambar

The large uruks with possible Mannish blood don't seem to have been around in the First Age, so I'm thinking that Morgoth's Orcs were from whatever the original stock had been. If that stock was indeed Elves, they should have been immune from disease, and Morgoth would have run no risk of infecting his own troops and possibly decimating his own forces by the plague. Especially when it doesn't seem to have really been necessary in a strategic sense.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The large uruks with possible Mannish blood don't seem to have been around in the First Age, so I'm thinking that Morgoth's Orcs were from whatever the original stock had been. If that stock was indeed Elves, they should have been immune from disease, and Morgoth would have run no risk of infecting his own troops and possibly decimating his own forces by the plague. Especially when it doesn't seem to have really been necessary in a strategic sense.

I like the internal approach here, but there's a bit of guesswork with respect to the effects of (heritable) corruption. I note this because, as you likely know already, even Tolkien seems to question whether Orcs should be 'immortal' if the stock were Elves -- although in the text concerned he then mused that orcs were beasts and short-lived, and that even if there was an Elvish strain this did not make a heritable state for long-lived orcs, as mixing would result in sterility in any event.


As for large Uruks in the First and Second Ages, if we look at two late statements concerning how tall the Eldar and the Numenoreans were, we are dealing with very tall warriors, at 6.5 to 7 feet, or taller for some. Were these warriors fighting 3 to 5 foot tall orcs?

As I noted above, before The Lord of the Rings was written, and thus within the context of the Silmarillion as it stood at the time, Tolkien appears to have desired Orcs to have been of nearly human stature -- looking at The Lord of the Rings, I would say this compares to the large Uruks, since the 'huge' Orc-chieftain in Moria, who must have been an Uruk, was still almost 'man-high', and the half-orcs, or at least some, were 'man-high'. In other words even this huge Uruk was yet of nearly human stature.

Again, this is characterizing an older citation as if (!) it was written within the same conception as much later descriptions, which I like to be wary about, but if we accept Orcs of nearly human stature in the First Age, which makes sense to me in any event (we might mix in some large Maiar-orcs), one would arguably assume that orcs diminished in size at some point after the fall of Morgoth. But still we have the Second Age: the Exiled Noldor would be tall, and do we imagine a seven foot (or more, according to one source) Elendil fighting orcs as small as 3.5 feet? or if a large one, say 5 feet? Possibe. Although maybe, if people agree that this seems a bit problematic anyway, the solution could be that the Last Alliance was the real turning point here.

Maybe the nearly man-high great orcs, along with many smaller ones, were almost wiped out at this time, and for many years in the Third Age, some orcs generally dwindled in size, or at least, did not breed in such a way as to produce many large fellows -- thus making the Uruks, especially the almost man-high ones of the Third Age, notable in size by comparison.

Not that JRRT wrote that! I think the Maiar-orcs of the First Age could be larger, stronger, 'immortal' and maybe even immune to disease, but JRRT doesn't seem to have imagined there were that many of these.

[alatar]

When you read the Sil, with its pages of pages of kinslayings between the elves, culminating with the assault by the evil sons of Feanor on the Havens of Sirion, it's no great leap to think that orcs were once elves.

[Galin]

And looking at the history of Men...

[leapofberen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm leaning toward the idea that "specialist" Orc-breeds might have been partly derived from the blood of Men, but I'm nearly positive Elves were the foundation of the "basic" Orc.

I think this hits the nail on the head...it is likely that interbreeding continued in the depths of Angband as long as Melkor continued in power. I don't have the Sil immediately available, but when Beren and Luthien stood before Morgoth, it is said (paraphrase here) that the darkest of thoughts yet entered Morgoth's mind, presumably concerning Luthien and what he could do with the daughter of a Maia and an Elf. Whether that means offspring or interbreeding, I can only imagine.

Initially though, it seems to me that the things that Melkor did were largely out of jealousy, hurt, pain, bitterness, etc, which implies that he originally tortured and interbred Elves not simply to raise up a corrupt army...but at the root, to cause pain to Eru, the rest of the Vala, etc.

As far as hobbits and Men being involved, I suppose it is possible. It occurs to me the Uruk were such. It seems that Morgoth was initially (mostly) hateful of the Elves because of the attention that was paid to them by the Vala (I might be a little off on that one, but that seems right at the moment). It seems Men were something of a sidenote, much as the Hobbits were in the Third Age. And when Men initially "awoke" the Dark Lord came to them to deceive them but I remember reading that he had to leave and left the business of deceiving Men to a "lesser being," and eventually Men came West at the rumour of a great Light which lived in the farthest West, which was a big mistake for Morgoth, yet it also implies he took Men for granted.

That Men or Hobbits were involved seems not only very possible, but not as grievous/important if the Elves were the ones who were first tortured and interbred; not because of who they were necessarily, but because of REASON why Melkor did it in the first place...in a fit of rage, vengeance, etc, which the Sil says "was most hurtful to Eru."

As far as Men go, didn't he fear Men the most? Yet it seems to me he also took them for granted. And is the fear simply not a foreshadowing of the fact that it would eventually be through the weakness of mortals (Men, Hobbits) that evil would be defeated and not through the might and beauty of the Firstborn? Yet the Firstborn were the ones who saw the Light of the West, were more like the Vala in life and appearance then Men, and were the favored of the Vala as well, so I seem to think it is more reasonable that Morgoth would want to corrupt them rather then Men as Morgoth was ever moved by the basest of motives (fear, hatred, insecurity, etc.)