Middle-earth Mysteries

[Sardy]

Here's a thread for listing and discussing some of the great unanswered mysteries of Middle-earth. what has Tolkien left unexplained? what loose end are we just dying to learn more about?

Off the top of my head:

1. The Blue Wizards. What ever became of them?

2. Saruman's Ring. what were it's powers? Where was it's power derived from? (My personal opinion is that Saruman crafted the ring himself, but it was bound to the One Ring and Sauron - the tragedy of Saruman being that he became so obsessed with Ring lore that he fell victim to the same fate as the other intended ring victims).

3. The Entwives. Where are they?

[Frodo Baggins]

I think I can sort of answer number 3. I believe the Entwives ended up in the Shire.

Treebeard told Marry and Pippin that the Entwives would have loved the Shire when they described it to him. Also, at the beginning of the whole saga, before there's mention of Rings and dark lords and something about the end of the world, Sam says his cousin saw a tree on the northern borders of the Shire walking "Seven feet to a stride if it was an inch". Perhaps this was an Entwife?

Saruman called himself "ring maker" although I'm not sure just what that ring of his was supposed to do except make him Saurons competitor for world domination. I would love to know what it looked like. Perhaps because he was of many colours his ring also was of many colours?

[radagastly]

You forgot to ask "What is Tom Bombadil?"

Seriously, an excellent topic!

I have to agree about Saruman's Ring. Except for one thing. For some time now, I've thought that the reason that Saruman's Ring failed him was because he was an imitative despot, at best. What I mean is that he was not willing to seperate himself from his power to the extent that Sauron was, he was not willing to put so much of himself into his Ring. He was vain, and ambitious. As I recall, (and I don't have access to the Letters), Sauron wanted to order the world for it's own good, according to his own designs. His motives were pure, even generous (in his own mind) , at least at the beginning. Saruman, on the other hand, wanted power for it's own sake, and ultimately found it empty and ineffective. Someone recently (and I don't remember who--if someone else remembers, let me know), had a quote in their signature that said (as best as I can remember) "The most inappropriate job of any man is that of the boss of other men. None are suited for it, least of all those who aspire to the position." (It's a quote from Tolkien, though I don't know from where.)

That's Saruman and his Ring, as I see it. He wanted to be the "boss of other men." Sauron didn't.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by radagastly

As I recall, (and I don't have access to the Letters), Sauron wanted to order the world for it's own good, according to his own designs. His motives were pure, even generous (in his own mind) , at least at the beginning. Saruman, on the other hand, wanted power for it's own sake, and ultimately found it empty and ineffective.

Well, I must say I never read the letters but I thought it was the other way about. If I'm not mistaken, when Saruman tries to convince Gandalf to join his side he talks about ordering the world for it to be the "proper way". He seems misguidingly altruistic (as in trying to convince himself that he is acting for the greater good of mankind when instead he's just making up excuses for his desire for power). On the other hand, Sauron seems to want power for power itself. he's willing to destroy, burn and kill his way to power, even if it's power over a barren land.

Yet I have never read the letters and I'm basing my argument solely on LoTR (and that, quoting off my memory). Tolkien might have said otherwise.

[Inziladun]

Referring to question 1, the "Blue Wizards" ( who were named Alatar and Pallando) apparently went off east and south of northwest Middle Earth. JRRT said they were emissaries to lands that were out of Númenorean range. They seem to have failed in their mission and were possibly the beginners of magic cults that outlasted Sauron's fall.

[Balin999]

Sam says his cousin saw a tree on the northern borders of the Shire walking "Seven feet to a stride if it was an inch".

You're forgetting that the Entwives didn't resemble the Ents in form and statue.
Treebeard says that they had round faces, were smaller and more concerned with the Earth and blossoms. So the tree in the Shire could only have been a male Ent.
I hate to say it, but I'm rather pessimistic concerning the entwives.
Since they had their gardens in what later became the Brown Lands, they might have died in the Great War.

[ninja91]

I also have a good question: What ever became of the Mouth of Sauron?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by ninja91

I also have a good question: What ever became of the Mouth of Sauron?

Complete speculation, but I think that, like Sauron after the overthrow of Morgoth, he would hang low a bit and then eventually start the next cycle. It might not be MoS, per se, but one of his offspring that might become the next great evil (though dluted like everything else). As precedent I cite Wulf, Freca's son.

[Orome]

Originally Posted by alatar

Complete speculation, but I think that, like Sauron after the overthrow of Morgoth, he would hang low a bit and then eventually start the next cycle. It might not be MoS, per se, but one of his offspring that might become the next great evil (though dluted like everything else). As precedent I cite Wulf, Freca's son.

Does the Mouth of Sauron have actual powers though? IIRC he is a black Numenorean, and as such would not have the innate power that Sauron had. Also, I would assume from this his power is tied to Sauron, so he would not be able to "lie low" like Sauron did. My personal thought is that after Sauron was overthrown, the "greater evils" i.e. sauron melkor came to an end, and the despotism and innate evilness of people came to the fore.

[narfforc]

The Mouth of Sauron entered into the service of the Dark Tower when it first arose again, I have always taken this to be possibly TA 2951, from this moment he grew in favour and learned great sorcery. Now if this is true, and we set his age at 20, then he would only be about the same age as Aragorn, not that old for someone of Numenorean descent. If we look at another scenario, one that places MoS at the earlier time of Saurons return from Numenor, then that makes him far older. In The Silmarillion we are told of Saurons return to Barad-dur thus:

And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Numenor.

It is possible that MoS was one of these.


If he had managed to somehow hold back his death, I think Sauron must have had something to do with it, for none can withold the gift of Iluvatar. The Numenoreans under their last Kings and at the height of their powers could not do this, if MoS had been lent power by Sauron, then at his downfall I think he would also fall. If he had somehow survived the fall of his master, I think this powerful sorcerer would/could have found some new power base. After the fall of Sauron, the Black Numenoreans merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor, seems like an ideal location for a New Shadow to arise. The mouth of Sauron would be a powerful character in The Fourth Age, the Istari have gone, and the other powers are enamoured of their environment.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Back to the original question....

Where do hobbits really come from?