Bombadil vs. Sauron? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sardy · 04-06-2006, 02:08 PM

Long time lurker, first time poster...

I saw a similar thread on this topic on the Battle for Middle-earth 2 gaming forums---unfortunately it quickly degraded to a a silly argument over who would win in a one-on-one fight. Thought I'd post it here for a more enlightened discussion...

A few questions that come to mind on the topic:

Was Sauron aware of Bombadil's existence, and if so what did he think of him? If Sauron had won the War of the Ring, and Bombadil was the last opposition, how would that battle (or if not a battle, how would that chapter of history) have gone?

I would love to imagine Bombadil singing circles around Sauron till the bitter end---the glaring lidless eye desperately trying to remain focused on the quick steps and leaps and bounds of Bombadil, as mocking chants of, His songs are stronger songs; and his feet are faster... Old Tom Bombadil is a merry old fellow; Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow! rise all around.

What would be the nature of a conflict between Tom and Sauron?

Elu Ancalime · 04-06-2006, 08:14 PM

Hmm, was Sauron aware of Bombadil?
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deal_with_it · 04-06-2006, 08:56 PM

Hmmm, well Gandalf mentioned during the Council of Elrond that even if the Ring were left in Tom's care, he'd eventually be overwhelmed my Mordor's might. But one-on-one... who knows. We don't know exactly what Tom is other than the First and Oldest.

Thalion · 04-06-2006, 09:16 PM

It is Glorfindel who at the Council of Elrond declairs that he thinks that Bombadil will not be able to hold off all of Sauron's might if he stands alone...howe this should be interpreted is tough...does this mean that Sauron's might includes all of the Orcs of Mordor as well as the Nine? I would tend to say that it does, and therefore the statement as read properly means that Bombadil can't stop all of Sauron's forces if they are all bent on destroying him as the last stand...but one on one???

...because Tolkien gives no direct inclination either way, I'll give mine...

Bomdabil is not bound to be influenced by the Ring, for which Sauron and all other creatures that we come into contact with in the LoTR are...meaning that Bombadil has some power or majesty that makes him immune to an object, a power that even Gandalf and Galadriel would be corrupted by...although this doesn't initially tell us whether or not he would win in a context mano a mano with Sauron, it does give us some insight...Sauron is bound to the Ring's influence, Bombadil is not...therefore Bombadil has some power in him over the Ring that Sauron does not...this seems to imply that Bombadil would win for no other fact than he can master something Sauron cannot (this isn't exaclty what I mean, but more like Bombadil has more power than Sauron because the ring doesn't affect him...if you take the earlier statement over mastery of the ring literally, it would make a good alternative debate as to whether or not Sauron himself has "mastery" of the ring or he himself is bound to its dominion, meaning that Sauron is moreso corrupted or under the influence of the ring like all others in Middle Earth except Bombadil are...but I digress...)

...here I would also venture to say the following...Sauron was "defeated" by a combination of Elendil and Gil-Galad...neither of which I would consider to have as much might as say the older Eldar or Edan such as Fingolfin, Hurin or Turin(side point)...but I am inclined to say that Bombadil would have mastery over these persons(Isildur, Elendil, Gil-Galad) as even they would fall under the dominion of the Ring(as Isildur did)...since Bombadil can "master" the Ring and they can't...I'd say he trumps them...since they trumped Sauron, I'd say Bombadil wins all...

Elu Ancalime · 04-06-2006, 09:55 PM

Well remember Bombadill didnt have control of the Ring, the Ring couldnt control him. Like Jeb Bush holds no influence over me, but I still cant impeach him, for example. Perhaps Sauron because he is the father of the ring in a sense is the same. He could not defeat Bombadil in Ultimate Fighter perhaps, but if he torched all the trees and stuff......i think that would be enough.
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Legolas · 04-06-2006, 09:56 PM

Sauron does not need "power over the Ring." It is a part of him. He has control of it just as he has control over the rest of his body.

obloquy · 04-06-2006, 11:16 PM

Quote:

meaning that Bombadil has some power or majesty that makes him immune to an object

Or simplicity. An aborigine deep in a South American rainforest would not likely care much for the Ring, either.

The 1,000 Reader · 09-03-2006, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deal_with_it

Hmmm, well Gandalf mentioned during the Council of Elrond that even if the Ring were left in Tom's care, he'd eventually be overwhelmed my Mordor's might.

He never says that directly, and I've always interpreted that as meaning Mordor would destroy Tom's "environment" and it would be harder to live and be happy, making Tom face the same problems a bear would. Overall though, a battle between Tom and Sauron would be a battle where Sauron would be dead on the ground and being danced on in a matter of moments.

Raynor · 09-03-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

He never says that directly, and I've always interpreted that as meaning Mordor would destroy Tom's "environment" and it would be harder to live and be happy, making Tom face the same problems a bear would. Overall though, a battle between Tom and Sauron would be a battle where Sauron would be dead on the ground and being danced on in a matter of moments.

The quote in question is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond, FotR

Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come

There are some interesting refferences: if all else is conquered and Night will come. Perhaps the coming of the night is simply a figure of speech - a victory of evil similar to the one mentioned in the Last Debate, one "so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts"); but then how could Bombadil be the last? Maybe Sauron will indeed follow the "same ruinous path down into the void" of Melkor (cf Valaquenta) and will resort to nihilism, complete destruction.

The 1,000 Reader · 09-03-2006, 12:19 PM

To paraphrase Homer Simpson: "Can't I just slowly destroy its environment and let it become docile, sterile, and lose all of its fur?"

I've always thought that Tom would go through what Homer planned for that bear, so to speak. Of course, this could possibly enrage Tom and lead to Mordor's downfall, but we have no real idea of it happening anytime.

Alcarin · 09-03-2006, 10:08 AM

Bombadil 4 life

04-06-2006, 02:08 PM	#1
Sardy Wight Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hudson Valley, NY Posts: 111	Bombadil vs. Sauron? Long time lurker, first time poster... I saw a similar thread on this topic on the Battle for Middle-earth 2 gaming forums---unfortunately it quickly degraded to a a silly argument over who would win in a one-on-one fight. Thought I'd post it here for a more enlightened discussion... A few questions that come to mind on the topic: Was Sauron aware of Bombadil's existence, and if so what did he think of him? If Sauron had won the War of the Ring, and Bombadil was the last opposition, how would that battle (or if not a battle, how would that chapter of history) have gone? I would love to imagine Bombadil singing circles around Sauron till the bitter end---the glaring lidless eye desperately trying to remain focused on the quick steps and leaps and bounds of Bombadil, as mocking chants of, His songs are stronger songs; and his feet are faster... Old Tom Bombadil is a merry old fellow; Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow! rise all around. What would be the nature of a conflict between Tom and Sauron? __________________ www.scottchristiancarr.com They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes. Last edited by Sardy; 04-06-2006 at 02:58 PM.

04-06-2006, 08:14 PM	#2
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 476	Hmm, was Sauron aware of Bombadil? ________ Montana marijuana dispensary Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:39 PM.

04-06-2006, 09:16 PM	#4
Thalion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Tol Morwen Posts: 82	It is Glorfindel who at the Council of Elrond declairs that he thinks that Bombadil will not be able to hold off all of Sauron's might if he stands alone...howe this should be interpreted is tough...does this mean that Sauron's might includes all of the Orcs of Mordor as well as the Nine? I would tend to say that it does, and therefore the statement as read properly means that Bombadil can't stop all of Sauron's forces if they are all bent on destroying him as the last stand...but one on one??? ...because Tolkien gives no direct inclination either way, I'll give mine... Bomdabil is not bound to be influenced by the Ring, for which Sauron and all other creatures that we come into contact with in the LoTR are...meaning that Bombadil has some power or majesty that makes him immune to an object, a power that even Gandalf and Galadriel would be corrupted by...although this doesn't initially tell us whether or not he would win in a context mano a mano with Sauron, it does give us some insight...Sauron is bound to the Ring's influence, Bombadil is not...therefore Bombadil has some power in him over the Ring that Sauron does not...this seems to imply that Bombadil would win for no other fact than he can master something Sauron cannot (this isn't exaclty what I mean, but more like Bombadil has more power than Sauron because the ring doesn't affect him...if you take the earlier statement over mastery of the ring literally, it would make a good alternative debate as to whether or not Sauron himself has "mastery" of the ring or he himself is bound to its dominion, meaning that Sauron is moreso corrupted or under the influence of the ring like all others in Middle Earth except Bombadil are...but I digress...) ...here I would also venture to say the following...Sauron was "defeated" by a combination of Elendil and Gil-Galad...neither of which I would consider to have as much might as say the older Eldar or Edan such as Fingolfin, Hurin or Turin(side point)...but I am inclined to say that Bombadil would have mastery over these persons(Isildur, Elendil, Gil-Galad) as even they would fall under the dominion of the Ring(as Isildur did)...since Bombadil can "master" the Ring and they can't...I'd say he trumps them...since they trumped Sauron, I'd say Bombadil wins all... __________________ "But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love."

04-06-2006, 09:55 PM	#5
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 476	Well remember Bombadill didnt have control of the Ring, the Ring couldnt control him. Like Jeb Bush holds no influence over me, but I still cant impeach him, for example. Perhaps Sauron because he is the father of the ring in a sense is the same. He could not defeat Bombadil in Ultimate Fighter perhaps, but if he torched all the trees and stuff......i think that would be enough. ________ List of motorcycles Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:41 PM.

04-06-2006, 09:56 PM	#6
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Sauron does not need "power over the Ring." It is a part of him. He has control of it just as he has control over the rest of his body. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

04-06-2006, 08:56 PM	#3
deal_with_it Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 42	Hmmm, well Gandalf mentioned during the Council of Elrond that even if the Ring were left in Tom's care, he'd eventually be overwhelmed my Mordor's might. But one-on-one... who knows. We don't know exactly what Tom is other than the First and Oldest.

09-03-2006, 12:19 PM	#10
The 1,000 Reader Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps. Posts: 527	To paraphrase Homer Simpson: "Can't I just slowly destroy its environment and let it become docile, sterile, and lose all of its fur?" I've always thought that Tom would go through what Homer planned for that bear, so to speak. Of course, this could possibly enrage Tom and lead to Mordor's downfall, but we have no real idea of it happening anytime. __________________ "And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains

09-03-2006, 10:08 AM	#11
Alcarin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: In your House Posts: 18	Bombadil 4 life __________________ “By the Way of the warrior is meant death. The Way of the warrior is death. This means choosing death whenever there is a choice between life and death. It means nothing more than this. It means to see things through, being resolved.”