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#1 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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LotR2-TTT-Seq04
Fate looks certain but there’s nothing guaranteed
Want for nothing, but is nothing what you need? Always pushing but you’re never satisfied I did believe you ’til I found out that you lied. – Time Again (Asia) The race chase continues through Rohan. We get a flyover shot above the Uruks, who are maintaining three somewhat straight lines, unlike in the books where the marching was less disciplined. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli continue to hustle after them, though the Uruks aren’t even that close. Again I expected more green color on the screen – not Hobbiton Tellyland, but less rock - as by now we have to be in Rohan proper. Oh my! We’re seconds into this sequence and the dwarf jokes have already begun. Now, assumedly, dwarves are a hardy folk, maybe the hardiest, and are able to bear great burdens over long distances. Think of Dáin II Ironfoot’s folk traveling to Thorin’s aid, or the dwarves that carried away anything of value after the Battle of Azanulbizar. Gimli is not much encumbered, but it is he who continually falls behind in the chase. Was this in the books, or is PJ adding something? And even if Gimli is the slowest of the three, need he be the one who (1) complains, (2) is the comic relief and (3) is shown in such distress? Slow and out of breath are not always linked. The other two natural sprinters could be way ahead of poor Gimli, yet be sucking twice the wind. Why, PJ, why? In Gimli perhaps did you see yourself? Legolas comments on the orcs’ speed, and why he is permitted a serious observation and not Gimli, I don’t know. We get more scenery shots of our three runners, and I can’t help but think that glaciers deposited those rocks as they retreated northward, even though it’s not exactly right. We get back to the leaders in this race as they break camp for the night (orcs settling down for the evening?). The hobbit baggage is cast to the ground while the troop sorts out the business. Some orcs, kin to Gimli perhaps, need to “breathe.” The leader starts ordering the camp, where the first task is lighting a fire. Next, I suppose, he will assign tents and dig a latrine. We note that the orcs are very near a forest, and I’m guessing that it’s Fangorn. PJ makes his way over to poor Merry, who now reconsiders having left the Shire. Here, not like in the books, Merry’s inclusion in the tale seems happenstance, or some fated event, as he meets up with Sam and Frodo in Farmer Maggot’s fields. If Farmer Maggot is actually Eru Iluvatar, then it is punishing Merry and Pip by sending them along with Frodo. If not… Well, Merry, ya should have thought that out a little better in Rivendell, but still I’m glad that you’re at least (finally) showing some sense. Is Pippin actually smiling? Hopefully the sense will float over to Pip as well. There’s that shirtless tree-chopping orc again! Now, as the orcs begin chopping enough wood to light a fire that can be seen across ME, the hobbits notice that something just ain’t quite right in them woods. They hear something, but what will it be? Whales this far inland? It’s possible, as at one time they had legs, and you just know how attractive the One Ring is (psst! I know that Merry or Pip doesn't have it). Merry thinks that it’s the trees a talking, and he compares them to the Old Forest trees outside Buckland that purportedly came alive (well, all trees are technically alive, but I think that he means animated walking talking CG bores). At least we have a reference to the missing Forest and Bombadil, and that PJ didn’t make up something completely new. The Uruks begin complaining about their conditions. Maggoty bread for three stinking days, he says. And just what airline did you fly, sir? Weren’t these same Uruks the uber-soldiers that could not tire, feel pain, question orders or what have you when Saruman launched them after the FotR? Guess all that running across ME (possible 500+ miles/ 800+ kilometers) just changes an orc. And the other orcs, lighter in skin and voice, agree that the victuals have been found wanting. Lacking strips of dried meat, the orcs look elsewhere for some protein. The hobbits appear to be good eating, thought to taste like chicken - though the sense of having hauled them across Rohan so that they could be roasted (or not) on the outskirts of Fangorn is a bit silly, but these are orcs. Luckily for Merry and Pippin the Uruks are there, and they protect the small hobbits from being eaten, whole or in part. But wasn’t that an Uruk that started this conversation? Next time, try tofu. Still the Lugbúrz (?) orcs continue to obsess over the hobbits, and I’m not sure why. Was that a “Hannibal Lector” sound that I heard. Note that it’s possible, as I didn’t notice any of the smaller light skinned or hunchy head-jerking Mordorian orc breeds in the overview running shot, that this is Mauhúr and his boys, or is that some other orc band? Whatever. We hear that the leader knows that these two hobbits could be carrying the Ring, but that’s not exactly what he says. Again why Saruman didn’t ship them directly to Lugbúrz is a mystery, and the only reason I can posit in the film is that the orcs couldn’t get across the Anduin, and so taking the Ring back to Saruman was the next best option. Fly Isengard airlines, with Fell Beasts leaving for points East on the hour. Merry realizes that without the Ring, they will be on the menu. The leader begins lopping off heads to put sense in the others, as in the books. And, true to form, after killing something the big Uruk makes a joke and the orcs turn cannibal, eating the slain orc of different breed. In all of the rendering of the supper, the hobbits are momentarily forgotten and so seek to escape. Hello orcs! They must be really hungry and so forget all of that nonsense that Saruman was spouting a movie ago. But the hobbits don’t get far as 'head-jerker orc' stomps on them, then taunts them. His statement regarding the saving of the hobbits is odd in that the Uruks are nearby and just seconds ago one just beheaded an orc for trying to bite the hobbits. Orcs. And it’s well known that as soon as you say that ‘no one can save you now,’ that shortly thereafter, the saving will take place. Naturally, then, the orc is spitted and we hear the sound of horses. The campers come under attack by the riders (presumably of Rohan), and Pip and Merry try to stay out of the way, as they may be mistaken for small snuffling orcs. The Uruks are quickly cut down, and I liked the Rohan bowman who could shoot both in front of and behind himself while riding. The scene ends with hooves threatening to flatten Pip (cheer!). We jump back to the Three Hunters, learning a little weather wisdom from Legolas. A red dawn indicates (1) blood has been spilled that night or (2) the Wolverines are repelling the communists from Colorado. Regardless, I thought that it was “red at night, sailor’s delight; red in the morn, sailors be warned” (Note that the saying also appears in the Christian Bible). Having spent most of my life in a rusting steel town, I’ve witnessed many beautiful sunrises and sunsets, and many were reddened. The spew from the mills adds particles to the air, and this can impart more colors and hues than usual. The only air color that ever concerned me was green, as that usually was an indication that a train car carrying chlorine gas derailed, and that it would be a good idea to stay indoors a while until the sirens quieted down. Suddenly, the three hunters pause as they hear the sound of horses. Éomer and his troop ride back up the trail of the orcs, presumably, and Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli step aside to get out of sight. Aren’t those elvish cloaks they’re wearing? As riders make to pass by, Aragorn calls out to them. The riders turn and bear down upon their new target. Suddenly the three are ringed in spears, which when you see it seems a bit overkill and to me possibly dangerous to the riders. Éomer asks their business in the Riddermark, and Gimli responds with twice the bravado. Aragorn obviously wishes that Gimli was more polite, but at least he’s not acting foolish. Éomer dismounts to push back at Gimli, and then Legolas enters the testosteronefest. After that, we have about 1000 spears and assorted sharp pointy things pointed at practically everyone, and all that it would take to set off this local Dagor Dagorath is one horsefly’s sharp bite. Aragorn’s calmer head prevails, and he starts making with the niceties. Éomer states that Théoden King is blind to both friend or foe (“…and, Aragorn, that means me”). He says that Saruman has claimed Rohan, and except for those still loyal, there isn’t much resistance. Éomer then begins to set us up for a meeting with a “White Wizard,” hoping to confuse what we may later see. He looks directly at Legolas when he speaks of spies wiggling through all nets, and I’m not sure if he’s accusing the elf or not. Legolas looks like he could give a hoot. Aragorn tells them of their quest, to rescue the hobbits in the clutches of the Uruks, but to that Éomer has no good news. Hope has failed. The horses, named as in the books, are given to the three. How Éomer went from "y’all are spies!" to "would you like a pony ride?" was a bit quick, but I guess we’re counting seconds here. Now, the meeting between Aragorn and Éomer went well enough, but I dislike that Éomer is riding from Edoras and not to it. But as he’s been banished, what’s the point of him going there? Still, he bearing swords beside Aragorn would have been a welcome scene, as I like Karl Urban. The Rohirrim leave, off to greener pastures north, leaving Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas to their tattered quest. The three hunters gallop on, with no hope of finding their two friends alive, but still, they do what they must, and ride to the journey’s end.
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#2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,538
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Ok, let's give this a try
About the Orcs:
I just checked the movie and about 15 minutes into it we see that a group of orcs from Lugbúrz (Mordor, right?) joining in. Now, the orcs are not setting camp for the night... the 'guys' from Lugbúrz need 'a breather' and so big-mean Uruk-Hai orders a fire to be made. Then one of the Uruk-Hai does complain about the food but his comment is quickly taken up by the 'lesser' Lugbúrz orcs who quickly loose their heads about it (one of them quite literally). We never get a chance to see if they meant to camp for the night because soon enough the Riders come in. About Gimli: I agree that he is out of character with Book Gimli (even Tolkien's dwarves as a whole).... yet he is definetly in character with Movie Gimli. So I agree and disagree with you. I find this mis-interpretation (whether intentional or not) of Book Gimli annoying, yet PJ is consistent with it. About Eomer possibly mistrusting Legolas: You are right, he seems to be giving him a hard look when he talks about the spies... in his defense, Book Eomer seemed to be weary of Elves, or at least of Galadriel (whom if I'm not mistaken she calls a witch). Maybe this is PJ's way of showing so? About Eomer suddenly becoming trusting: I agree with you that given that the movie is already four hours long (extended edition) PJ did not have 15 minutes to spare for Aragorn to properly gain Eomer's trust. About what I have not mentioned: Well, I mostly agree, and found it very funny... you should come over to Mirth from time to time Alatar....
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#3 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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And to me there looks to be three types of orcs in the group (though not in the 'running' shot). Moria, Orthanc and Mordor? Quote:
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#4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
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About the running shot:
Ok, just looked again. On the first shot of the Orcs running, you can only see the bigger ones (Isengard's) but on the second, when they sort of fly over them you can somewhat tell that there are two types. The Orcs from Isengard form the front rows and somewhat keep themselves in three columns, while smaller orcs (Mordor?) run on the back of the column and sort of bunch up, not keeping ranks. About the third group of orcs, would you tell me when you see them? I can only see two groups, the big ones and small ones. It might be a cross-over with the book. If I'm not mistaken, there are three groups of orcs, the Uruk-Hai that want to take the hobbits to Isengard, the ones from Mordor that want to take them to... well, yeah... and the ones from Moria who want revenge for the orcs the fellowship killed. About setting up camp I beg to differ, I still think they are just starting a fire. It might be another cross over with the book, in which we know they stop because the Riders have corraled them. Anyhow, the Riders come in before they get a chance to really do anything that will give us evidence either way. About Gimli Let me make an ammendment... I think Gimli is kept consistent over the last two movies of the triology. About the Rohirrim and the ring of spears (which I forgot to comment on last time around) I am not a great medieval-times warrior, but I can see the sense in doing such thing. If you are standing close to a bunch of guys who have absolutely no way out, you want to keep them at a spear's lenght from you. I mean, should the strangers feel that they are going to die anyway, they might charge at anyone who is unprepared and try to take as many down as they can. At such close range, using an arrow would not be too smart (in spite of what Legolas does) given that if you have your spear handy, you can give them a little (fatal) poke even before they manage to draw and aim. At the same time, to kill someone with a sword you need to get relatively close to them... much closer than a spear's lenght anyway. So maybe it is a logical thing to do after all? as I said, I know nothing about medieval warfare, and I am making an explanation based on what I see in the movie... Personally, and given that we know they have (Very good) archers, I would say you make the ring big enough for the defenders to have time to get their spears at the ready and aim at the strangers with your archers. Same effect, even less chance of giving them an oportunity to hurt you. But then, it's also less dramatic, and thus less useful for movie purposes A parting shot Quote:
Do those scenes include a certain dwarf making certain comments about running long distances? ![]()
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#5 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
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Here's that orc wood chopper to which I referred.
Why orcs have to remove their shirts/armor before swinging an axe is beyond me. **Note that the first image was captured in "The Burning of the Westfold" whereas the second is from "Night Camp at Fangorn."
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#6 | ||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
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Nice post, Farael, and well organized (unlike mine
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I'll try to capture some images for comparison. Quote:
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#7 |
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
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Fire can be used as a weapon. Perhaps they hoped that the horses of the Rohirrim could be frightened or stayed with fire.
Maybe they were just orkses, and not terribly bright.
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#8 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 886
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I can handle Gimli's comic relief here (just)
I love scenes where the narration stays close to the book. The first scene between Eomer and the 3 hunters is a good example. all the discussion above on whether the rohirrim would actually enclose the 3 hunters is lost on me when I see the work of Genius and Beauty to actually get it to work on screen. It still makes me sit up EVERY time I see it. Superb horse training and choreography from PJs Horse People! Great acting from Karl Urban btw. Bit that grates with me is that the movie hobbits didn't go through the Old forest and meet up with Tom now! Once Pippin (or is it Merry) mentions the 'stories of the Old Forest' it throws me out of ME and back in the real world thinking about the commentary on LOTR where Phillipa Boyens states "you can imagine that the hobbits did go through the old forest and meet tom" as the hobbits stand by the gate of Bree. But one movie on we have Pippin dispelling that possibility. Grrrrr! |
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#9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,538
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Alatar:
Good points about the orcs and fire. Now that I think about it, fire in the movie can associated with burning down, torching, destroying, blowing up.... and all those 'qualities' go along with 'orcs'. Yet there is one instance in which fire can be associated with "protection". Namely, when Aragorn fights the Nazghul off. He uses fire to hurt them, and in the books we hear that they don't really like fire. Maybe "fire" in the movie is not necessarily an orc thing, but rather a fighting device. Also, about the different kinds of orcs, I see what you mean... but in the movie we don't have any clues about a third group of orcs, so maybe it's just a pale mordorian orc with a very nasal voice? Yet your guess is as good as mine... but I'm willing to give PJ a break on this one. Essex I hope it does not sound as if I am trying to find reasons not to enjoy the movie... to be honest, I could watch it time and time again and I still won't get tired. I have probably seen Theoden's "speech" before they charge to break the siege in Minas Tirith a couple dozen times as that scene still makes me shiver. I agree that the scene with Eomer, the Rohirrim and the hunters is masterfully done. I think the acting is good and the ring of spears is at least plausible ![]() On the other hand, I don't think that Merry talking about the Old Forest is an 'anticlimax' of sorts. I think that it both gives hints about the upcoming Ents (and so, it makes the talking, walking and not very hasty tree less of a shock and more of a surprise*) and it's one of the points in which those of us who have read the books realize what they were talking about and what would soon come up. *: What I mean by 'less of a shock and more of a surprise' is that it's less of a "why in the Lord's name is that tree walking?" reaction and more of a "wow, that's amazing!" reaction
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#10 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Quote:
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#11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
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I really like the way the sun rises when Legolas delivers his line "A red sun rises..." Its really neat the way the rays silhouette the actors. (I hope you understand what I'm trying to say)
I don't mind all of Gimli's jokes, this one I am okay with since it also provides a little bit of info about the dawarves and I do think he actually says something similar in the books. Didn't Andy Serkis do all the orc voices for the camping scene? The way the three hunters are encircled by the Rohirrim is pretty neat. I love the costumes. I didn't mind that the plains of Rohan weren't as grassy. If they had been too grassy it would have reminded me of the prairie and North America. But, since it is so rocky it stays more like ME for me because it is more alien for me.
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#12 |
Laconic Loreman
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I felt as if this is where Gimli's character goes down hill. Gimli served as a comic relief in FOTR, but I never lost track of who a dwarf was, or I never felt like Gimli wasn't a dwarf. I felt like Jackson did a good job of having Gimli be a comedic character, yet I never lost the sense that he was a dwarf. But, as we progress into TTT and ROTK this dramatically changes, and I disagree with the use of Gimli's comedy as a "positive" for the movie. When threads start popping up about Gimli being a useless character and serving no purpose in the Fellowship, he's just slow and prevents Aragorn and Legolas from doing anything, I think Jackson did something wrong with Gimli.
Also, I think Grishnakh was mistreated in the movies as well. As he seems more driven to eat the hobbits than him being intellegent and knowing about the Ring. First off this displays the cunningness of Pippin in getting Grishnakh to believe that he has the Ring, and this shows the intellegence of Grishnakh, and not all Orcs are mindless cannibals. Which is how I felt about them at this part in TTT. The scene done with Aragorn and Company with Eomer, there's really nothing I can complain about, nor anything I can praise. They were done solidly (in my view) and that's really all I can say about them. (I still find it very fun when Eomer loses his sword and he even looks at it as it falls to the ground...I crack up. ![]()
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