Il Principe (of Beleriand...)

[Anguirel]

Well, we've seen Fordim's High King of the Noldor poll descend into a merciless melee over the morality of, in particular, Turgon's approach to government.

During the brawl Lalaith rather intriguingly told the Turgon-partigiani to "go back to their Machiavelli fansites"...and this could not help but make me think.

Let us imagine a minor scion of, let us say, Finwe's house, returning with the host of rebel Noldor, whether it be Feanor's lot or Fingolfin's. Setting up minor kingdoms is starting to become all the rage.

But this Noldorin prince has more wisdom than most. Using the works of his hands, he crafts a time-machine and takes a trip to 16th century Florence. There he buys and reads the work of Niccolo. Wait a mo, he says. This adan lord, Lorenzo il Magnifico, seems to be doing pretty well. I want a treatise! I want some advice!

But he finds Macchiavelli works only up to a point. His principles are sound, but he doesn't really comprehend the devastation caused by Orc armies, and he's never had to make deals with Elu Thingol.

So our hero the Noldorin prince-shall we call him Nilpaurion?-hops back into his time machine and goes forward a little further, to 21st century Oxford, let us say. He finds a computer, and being exceedingly cunning, intuits his way onto the internet. He finds the Barrow-Downs. And he consults us.

I wonder how we diverse Downers would advise him. He'll be wanting answers to pressing questions such as:

How do I best resist Morgoth?

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

Do I go for:
A The cave network approach
B The hidden city approach
C The enchanted forest approach
D The seaside haven approach
E The massive great try-this-for-size-Morgoth-old-chap fortress approach

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?


Well, over to the floor, and let's see what the sages of the Barrow-Downs say. What should Nilpaurion do?

Macchiavelli-lovers are welcome, but also Romantics, and even Valar-cuddlers. I hope this debate throws up some interesting, revealing and educational results...or at least creates a little discord.

[Kuruharan]

How do I best resist Morgoth?
By staying out of his way.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?
Won't be an issue, see below.

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?
As little as possible. Also probably won't be an issue, see below.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?
Immediately head for the Isle of Balar and points south. Stay there.

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?
Won't be an issue. See above.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?
A hardy, adventurous sea-faring folk who have no interest whatsoever in going north. All exploring and fun stuff should take place in the sunny south.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Well, aside from the fact that Nilpaurion now knows without a doubt that he is doomed

Actually, not necessarily so. He needs to "stay alive" until
the valar are finally convinced to come back and make
Morgoth an offer he can't refuse.

So he gets his peoples (smaller in # then Nargothrond or
Gondolin, partly for security) and does recons. An interesting,
if undeveloped, cave complex is found on the north side of the White
Mountains, conveniently behind some rivers and with a
spooky woods and strong dwarf underground dwelling to distract
any far-ranging Thangorodrim scouts. His tunnellers then enlarge
some exits they've found that lead into the heart of the White
Mountains and prepare a small, unobtrusive port facility along
the south coast where there's an interesting promontory
(could make a good castle some day).

P.S. He knows about the valar intervention by reading some
history books uncovered in Oxford by a 20th century professsor.

[Anguirel]

Good going so far...but Tuor, I don't think we should let Nilpaurion read the Silmarillion...that would seriously warp the thought experiment...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Anguirel:

Good going so far...but Tuor, I don't think we should let Nilpaurion read the Silmarillion...that would seriously warp the thought experiment...

Good point. Nilpaurion did look for histories of the First Age, but sadly,
he didn't realize that many librarians held the view that being so long
ago the history had become legend and the legend had become
myth, so they classified it under Fiction or Fantasy, so Nilpaurion
didn't find them.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?
A hardy, adventurous sea-faring folk who have no interest whatsoever in going north. All exploring and fun stuff should take place in the sunny south.

Sounds like the ideal culture to survive in your First Age, Kuru, would have been the Californian surfer set...

Sorry, I'll let you all get back to your serious discussions.

[Kuruharan]

would have been the Californian surfer set

I said hardy and adventurous not...well, maybe I better not continue that thought.

Yes, I know the Californians will now want to kill me.

[Anguirel]

Well, Kuru has chosen one extreme, and alatar has, in large part, followed him. Let me declare my own position. It will come as surprise to few, but it may provoke some duelling...

1. How do I best resist Morgoth?

Most answers so far have been of the "cringe, cringe, Dark Lord, don't hurt me and I won't hurt you, not that I even could" variety. I would dissent from them. Our prince is a Noldo, not some kind of Vanya! Of course, alatar, you're free to advocate shunning active resistance, but I don't see the point.

There is a Norse saying "A brave man dies once, a coward many times." Destruction will come to the Noldor, flee they ever so far. Best to weather the storm!

I suggest-build up grand alliances with Elves of whatever stamp, if at all possible. Swear an oath of mutual respect (like that sworn by the Greek princes of the Iliad). Foster connections with Men and Naugrim. With unity, the free peoples of Beleriand could have been greater than a thousand Valarin relief forces!


2. How friendly should I be with Thingol?

Stop short of actual homage-such a debasement might alienate subjects and Noldorin allies. However, offer Thingol help whenever he requires it, and send help even if he refuses it. Kinslayer or not, you need to prove your worth against the common enemy. Learn Sindarin and accept Sindar and Nandor subjects.


3. How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

Sad though it makes me, I can see some of Feanor's sons, Celegorm and Curufin, are beyond the diplomatic pale. However, this should not hinder good relations with Maedhros and Maglor, the hunters Amrod and Amras, and even Caranthir-a wealthy and far-sighted ruler.

Do not attempt to claim Silmarils for self. Do not co-operate with Silmaril grabbers of any description. Do not help insane Silmaril-snatching expeditions led by the Sons of Feanor, unless they serve the wider purpose of defeating Morgoth.


5. What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

I would be inclined to head east over the Ered Luin, or in the Ered Luin themselves. A mountain stronghold could be held with a network of caves beneath it. Co-operation with the Naugrim would therefore be essential. No Hidden City vibe, just hold the place by force of arms. Position it some way south of Himring so Maedhros faces your enemies before you do...maybe some manipulation of mountain rivers would add to defensive capabilities...


6. What do I do about Dwarves and Men?
Dwarves, as seen above, are vital allies, doughty in battle, excellent smiths and Dragon-slayers too. No height-jokes or Petty-Dwarf hunting.

As for Men, protect tribes dwelling in your region and they will be grateful, but maintain a certain distance. You really don't want them to get involved too deeply in your affairs. Their short lives stir up the Doom of Mandos.


7. What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

A grim, fell, taciturn people, skilled in siegecraft, engineering and swordplay. Not exclusively Noldor; Green-elves and Sindar welcome if they can stand mountain life and put up with Dwarves. Probably not that much in the way of romance, music or art, sadly. Trained to kill enemies of any sort that get too near.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Of course, alatar, you're free to advocate shunning active resistance, but I don't see the point.

Active resistance? I think that we know where that will lead (read the Sil). My activity is survival at almost all costs. I'm using the insect model. Camoflague, so that we cannot be detected, and generalization, where any group can restart the colony.

We saw Fingolfin fall, and though the Naugrim were brave, Glaurung's fire still burned in Beleriand. And what did Hurin's bravery buy him?

There is a Norse saying "A brave man dies once, a coward many times." Destruction will come to the Noldor, flee they ever so far. Best to weather the storm!

Another said, "Dead men tell no tales," and I would had, 'have no children.' A prudent person realizes that some pursuits are futile, and so adapts. As you sit in the Halls of Mandos you can be reading about my peoples in the future (I'll send progress reports), and we will sing songs about your brave dead. Thanks for giving Morgoth something else to do so that he left us alone.

I suggest-build up grand alliances with Elves of whatever stamp, if at all possible. Swear an oath of mutual respect (like that sworn by the Greek princes of the Iliad). Foster connections with Men and Naugrim. With unity, the free peoples of Beleriand could have been greater than a thousand Valarin relief forces!

And how is this different than what occurred? With all of those alliances and the ilk, someone does something 'wrong,' and the lies of Morgoth start to take hold, then suddenly it becomes a big mess. Wasn't that the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I would be inclined to head east over the Ered Luin, or in the Ered Luin themselves. A mountain stronghold could be held with a network of caves beneath it. Co-operation with the Naugrim would therefore be essential. No Hidden City vibe, just hold the place by force of arms. Position it some way south of Himring so Maedhros faces your enemies before you do...maybe some manipulation of mountain rivers would add to defensive capabilities...

Not to pile on, but adding to what Kuruharan has already stated, but your mountain fortress would be prone to siege, and unless you can eat rocks...Even Morgoth was smart enough (or lucky enough) to have a back door.

[alatar]

• How do I best resist Morgoth?

Are we actively resisting him, or just waiting out the storm? I'd have tried to catch Manwë's ear and tell him that Melkor thinks that he's full of hot air. And that Varda likes decisive valar. Anyway, unless you could clone Fingolfin and launch the clones into the fray right as the original elf starts to falter, your best bet is to ride out the years until the War of Wrath.

• How friendly should I be with Thingol?

Very. See if Melian has a sister. But don't sign any mutual assurance treaties. See if he would like to vacation at your place (see below), as long as he brings the wife.

• How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

Be polite, but say that you are preparing your own attack forces and so aren't able to send help in the current battle. And leave your mailing address as "Gondolin."

• What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

Isle of Balar. Think about it. An island, ringed by water that never was friendly to Morgoth, protected by a Melian-type girdle. Also, I'd build an eyrie just in case some eagles wanted to take up residence.

• What do I do about Dwarves and Men?

Treat them as you would the other elves. Trade, but don't let them inside.

• What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

A gathering of seafaring independent people that are ready to split south at first sight of orcs/Balrogs in boats or when the Girdle starting to fizzle. Each subtribe would be able to restart the colony as needed wherever they found safety should the worst befall the base. Faced with the indomitable Morgoth, it'd be a good idea not to be too visible, or too stuck in one place, or too hung up with petty squabbles.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

How do I best resist Morgoth?

Don't. "Hey Morgoth, how's it going?" And then, once you're less likely to die a quick (or maybe severely prolonged) death, think carefully on ways to mess with him from the inside. Sure he's got loads of orcs he can sacrifice, but how many elven princes are on the inside?

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

Chat over the occasional cup of tea. Maybe a game or two of curling in the winter to spice things up a bit. Don't promise anything, but make sure he knows you're a pretty chill guy.

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

If you want a long-lasting princedom, ban jewelry. Call it what you want... tell your smiths that Eru likes modesty and that such ornamentation is vanity... whatever it takes to keep people from thinking "Hm, I'll bet that silmaril would make a nice engagement ring."

To be honest, you really don't want an official alliance with these guys. They're crazy. You want predictable pals. When Morgoth's attacking and you need assistance, you don't want friends whose first thought will be "Is he attacking because they stole my bling? Maybe we should let Morgoth do the job of it and teach them suttin fierce for takin' our shine."

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

Fortresses are bad. As soon as you build a fortress (most specifically if it has a moat), you are daring your enemies to try out your defenses. You're publicly declaring your fear of assault and you're stating that your walls can't be breached. It's an open invitation.

Hidden city: same thing. "Nah nah nah nah nah nah, you can't find us!" It's a dare. Prudent rulers aren't going to make bold statements.

Caves: if they don't have a back door, you can get trapped, and if they do, you can get invaded from more than one entrance.

Seaside haven: do you really want to be trapped between legions of enemies and a tempestuous ocean?

Enchanted forest: Probably the best idea, but make sure they are legitimate enchantments. You don't want tempermental magic that's going to let your enemies sneak up in the middle of the night. If your base of operations is in the middle of a forest and your magic conks out, your enemies have tree-cover. They'll be able to get close before your scouts spot them.

As with the answer on how best to deal with Morgoth, do it by staying in the open. If you hide, you're practically begging to be sought out. The best secret is one kept in the open.

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?

If by about them, you mean to them, don't. Dwarves hold grudges. Don't worry about men. The ones annoying you will die quickly enough anyhow.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

One involved a lot of laughing, singing, dancing, and Marmite. What's the point of surviving all this time if you've got nothing to live for?

[Kuruharan]

Insight a chronic nationalistic xenophobia in your subjects. Slay all strangers.

Harsh yes, but for the greater good.

Lalwende would be appalled.

You want predictable pals.

Could you possibly recall this the next time you play werewolf...particularly if I'm playing.

[Elu Ancalime]

How do I best resist Morgoth?
Have another kingdom or two on his path to me. He will be resisted there, and perhaps distracted.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?
Quite. On a easygoing, trading level, with ambassadors and such. Send him wine.

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?As little as possible. Do not ever come in contact with Jewls, cast them aside. Be invisible to Feanor's sons.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?
One thats sunny and slightly elevated, so can see miles in advance. Surronded by Plains, but rocky at that, sort of like the Wold and East Wall of Rohan.

Do I go for:
A The cave network approach
B The hidden city approach
C The enchanted forest approach
D The seaside haven approach
E The massive great try-this-for-size-Morgoth-old-chap fortress approach
A walled city in a forest on a river that is no more than 40 miles away from the Sea. That way, forest and walls help defend, and if attacked can flee to the Sea, take residence and give tribute to Kuru's kingdom.
What do I do about Dwarves and Men?
Trade with dwarves, but keep on a strictly capitalist level; be friendly to men, yet do not harbour them for long, especially heros that are followed by curses and dragons, and be ever doubtful of their military suggestions.
What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?
A unique but peaceful one. A sort of Lindon, that is never at war on its own land, can go to the Sea for comfort, and has allies that are between it and the Enemy.

I call it.....Er-Nimton "One White City," ruled by Finarfin's grandson Kevin I son of Orodreth, raised by an Eagle who found him playing by the shore of the Narog after the Battle of Tumhalad.

It puts Turgon to shame.....
________
Interceptor

[The Saucepan Man]

I am a Noldorin Prince, right?

How do I best resist Morgoth?

I get stuck into him at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

Since he is not interested in getting stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses, he is of little interest to me.

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

I’m one of them, probably. If not, I co-operate with them, because it gives me the chance to get stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

Anywhere on the front line, enabling me to get stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?

I respect Dwarves’ skill with metal and trade with them to obtain the best weapons and armour available, thus facilitating my aim to get stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

I use Men as cannon fodder in the front line whenever I am getting stuck into Morgoth, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

One that values getting stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

I don't survive for very long ...

[Alcarillo]

How do I best resist Morgoth?

By only attacking when you have a chance at winning. That means killings orcs that venture into your territory, outnumbering your enemy, and keeping an eye out for what Morgoth might do next. Don't recklessly charge Angband with your glittering hosts of elven warriors. Morgoth can just unleash his dragons, balrogs, etc. upon you and wreak havoc upon your army. Fight the small battles away from Angband, when you're on home turf. Try not to go on the offensive, it'll only put you on Morgoth's to-be-destroyed list.

Keep a good eye on the borders of your kingdom. Built watchtowers and outposts where necessary. Keep them stocked with gear and food for soldiers on the march.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

Fairly friendly. You should send messengers to him bearing gifts and promising friendship. You, with combined armies, can be secure knowing that Morgoth will think twice about swooping down from the north to kill you. There's strength in numbers.

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

Try not to get involved with the whole oath/doom/kinslaying affair. It only brings trouble. Don’t make any solid alliances with any of them. In fact, the less you deal with them, the better. If you're unlucky enough to find a Silmaril in your hands, hand it over immediately. It's of little worth to yourself, and getting rid of it will deter the next kinslaying.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

I would choose a site near the mountains, full of rocky, hilly terrain and thick forests. It'd be difficult for an army to maneuver in there. You should also preferably be near one or two major rivers, to act as easily defendable natural borders.

Do I go for:
A The cave network approach

A cave network is hidden underground, provides escape through numerous backdoors and secret passages, easily defended at a few major entrances, not obvious to find, and can still be a beautiful site for your throne. Plus, only you and your people know exactly the size of your caves. Morgoth would have a hard time pinpointing all the exits!

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?

Treat them with respect. If there are Dwarves in the nearby mountains, I'm sure they'll be glad to help you hew your caves out of the rock. Establishing trade with them is excellent, too. Just be careful about your alliances. An alliance with Thingol won't impress the dwarves in the long run, and vice versa.

As for Men, let them roam your kingdom; they're mostly harmless. Being friendly with them won’t hurt, and I'm sure they'd be glad to fight alongside you when orcs attack. Aside from that, you probably don't have much use for them.

But don't trust them too much. Let them settle at the kingdom's edges, but not within, lest they be captured by Morgoth and the secret locations of your outposts are given away.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

A secluded Elven stronghold, strongly defended and rarely venturing beyond its borders. You should be friendly towards all and fight only when attacked. Your strongest allies are the Sindar, and you are on friendly terms with Men and Dwarves. Your kingdom is rather estranged from the other Noldor, and you tend to stay out of their business.