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02-20-2006, 03:18 AM | #1 | ||
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
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Varda&Melkor and Marriages of Valar
This was a question I posted on the Misc. Questions thread. It seemed to get no attention (except a humorous post by Formendacil), so I decided to make a new thread.
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There seemed to be no discussion like this before. Please correct me (again) if I happen to be wrong.
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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02-20-2006, 03:54 AM | #2 | |
Wight
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 166
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Thinlómien, I quote a somewhat longer text piece of the Silm regarding Varda:
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"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia. |
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02-20-2006, 04:00 AM | #3 |
Haunting Spirit
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In my opinion, there was more than only rejecting his 'doctrine'. Varda was not the only one, who went not with him and rejected his 'doctrine'. There were lots of other Ainur, who went with Manwë and haven't followed Melkor.
There must be another reason, that Melkor started to hate her. I mean, Tolkien mentioned only Varda in this case, consequently she must have done something, what the other Ainur have not done. I see the reason in a special rivalry of the 'brothers in mind' Melkor and Manwë. Both are really powerful Ainu and plays some special parts in the thoughts of Eru. But both represents the opposite in the concepts, which they have. Evil versus Good. It seems to me (I am only speculating), that both Ainur wanted Varda as spouse. But she rejected Melkor and became the spouse of Manwë. Considering the rivalry of Manwë and Melkor, this must be very hurtful for Melkor to see his chosen spouse going to his rival in mind. That could be an explanation of the (from Tolkien) underlined hatred of Melkor against Varda. Refusing to being spouse of him and then becoming spouse of his rival can be a reason for very personal feelings and when you are assessed like Melkor, this will be manifested surely as hatred.
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02-20-2006, 04:23 AM | #4 | ||
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
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But, again, do Valar have romantic/sexual feelings? I think I read from somewhere that they didn't, but it seems that at least maiar (or some of them) had: see Melian. That o'course takes us to interesting paths: what if gandalf had fallen in love with someone in ME?!? Seriously, I question my own conclusion about maiar and love; maybe it wasn't romantic/sexual love that Melian felt towards Thingol, but somekind of deep affection (which we see Gandalf being capable of) and their marriage was kind of compromise/union of her affection and Thingol's love (and lust). Any thoughts?
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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02-20-2006, 05:01 AM | #5 | |
Wight
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 166
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However, we see him later (but by that time he has become more attached to his physical embodiment and even further devolved into his evilness) lusting for Lúthien; IIRC this has been discussed here at the BD some time (long) ago.
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"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia. |
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02-20-2006, 11:18 AM | #6 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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In regards to the valar feelings, in some early variants of the story (and even in HoME X - "Fionwe son of Manwe"), we find refferences to the sons of the valar (though Chris discarded those versions in the Silmarillion).
Concerning Melkor's relation to Varda, it is noted in Myths Transformed that he desired to posses all light: Quote:
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02-20-2006, 12:34 PM | #7 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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I think the discussion is focused to a time later then the "feelings" of Melkor for Varda. As already quted it is told that "Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music". Well I don't think that any of the Ainur did not know Melkor but it is mentioned in a way to suggest that Varda did already know that Melkor was on a strange path (strange not evil) before ever the music started. And it is quite possible that this was the case since it is told that Melkor "had gone often alone into the void places ... being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren."
So the sequence of the events was like this: Making of the Ainur Making of the timless halls while the Ainur sing alone or in small groups before Eru Melkor is often in the Void Melkor begins to think his own thoughts astranged from his brethern Melkor desires Varda (for what ever) She sees his astrangement from the other Ainu and rejects him the playing of the Music the Valar move into Ea Varda gets the light newly given from Eru She enters Ea to become Manwes companion It is more than once told that "in Arda" Varda is Manwes soupose. WHich for me means that she had become so after both entered Ea. Respectfully Findegil |
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