money in middle earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Melilot Brandybuck · 02-10-2006, 04:34 AM

I just wondered, as I am re-reading FoTR, does the Shire mint its own money? There are quite a few references to money at the beginning. I believe Bilbo hands out a few pennies to children hanging around near BagEnd before his party. Frodo worries about the small amount of money he is carrying when he first suspects Aragorn of being a rogue. They pay the apparently astounding amount of 12 silver pennies for Bill the Pony, and then Butterbur pays Merry 18 silver pennies for the loss of Merry's ponies.

(IMO, I don't think it was fair of Merry to accept Butterbur's money. After all, it was due to the presence of the hobbits that the inn was attacked in the first place. They were all fully aware that the animals were taken to hinder their departure. Not only did Butterbur reimburse Merry, but he would have been honor-bound to reimburse the owners of the other horses that were missing. He's lucky they were later returned to him - bar one - but he wouldn't have known that at the time.)

But back to my original query. Is this money only valid in the Shire? Is the value of silver the same throughout ME? It just makes me wonder about the economy of the Shire. I would have thought that if there is a Mint, there is a Treasury and all the offices that go with it.

Mithalwen · 02-10-2006, 07:02 AM

This is spooky because I was thinking about the same thing in a different context with regard to Lake Town and the claim on the dragon gold to pay for the repairs. This and the fact of the woodelves trade with the Lakemen which seems to involve paying for goods rather than barter implies some form of currency must have been in operation. It was certainly based on the value of the metal rather than the sophisitcated form of credit notes we use. Interestingly it seem to be the less sophisticated cultures (woodelves, dale and breemen and hobbits who have the more sophisticated economies). The highelves and dunedain seem more feudal -that probably isn't the right term but I am sure there is an economist/ social-historian amongst the downers who can explainit properly

alatar · 04-07-2006, 10:05 AM

This has been growing on my mind of late...

It all started when I considered what Frodo did with his life prior to year 3018. How did he eat, buy beer, pay for Sam's employ? Am I just clueless regarding how such a culture or economy would function, or is this just glossed over, being mostly irrelevant to the story?

Consider: Frodo inherits Bad End, and so he has no 'mortgage.' He's a bachelor with no dependents, which makes things a bit simpler. He has to, however, heat and light the place, and so either purchases or gathers wood and makes candles. Somehow I doubt that Frodo was out chopping wood. He, being a hobbit, eats like a shrew, and even if he fixes his own suppers Frodo has to get the provisions from somewhere. Of course he has a garden, but I guess that he somehow pays Sam to work there, and also Sam maintains Bag End, keeping the place standing against the tides of time.

So how does he pay for the things that he does not have nor cannot make? Bilbo may have left a fortune, but what good would it be? For example, let's say that Bilbo left Frodo a bunch of little Arkenstones (not the big one, but smaller essays). Could Frodo use these to buy labor or materials? To me it would be like going to the local grocery (not that we have those in "Merica, as they've all been consumed by UberMegaBigBoxMarts) and attempting to trade a gold brick for some bread and cheese. Even if the grocer accepted the trade, eventually I would run out of gold bricks. The value in Gondor of the little arkenstones might be a princely sum, but in the Shire their value may be less - even if I bought the entire stock of the baker, I would still run out of stones, or their value would decrease as everyone (the innkeeper, Sam, etc) would have one. And what would the baker or innkeeper or Sam do with a bucket of arkenstones? If no one else accepted them - they're pretty little baubles, but you can't eat them nor burn them - the people that Frodo paid would not accept more of the same.

Anyway, my concern is that Frodo's 'wealth' might not allow him to sit idle for so many years.

Could he invest his money so that even if he were buying bread with arkenstones that he could live off the 'interest' on his wealth? In what could he invest that would provide a return? I just have no grasp on how that would all work in such a primitive (I don't mean that derogatively) and agrarian culture.

Plus, obviously, I want to find out Frodo's secret so that I, too, can spend my days walking the countryside, looking at maps and chatting with elves.

Aiwendil · 04-07-2006, 10:53 AM

I have always suspected that the Shire did have a monetary system - the appearance of silver pennies in Bree being evidence of this.

The Bagginses were apparently "well off" even before Bilbo's adventure. Bilbo appears to have led quite a comfortable life, at any rate. So I imagine that, even were it not for the dragon-gold, Frodo would have inherited enough money to live on.

I think, though, that the treasure of Smaug might not be all that hard to convert into useable sums of money. It was not all "little arkenstones" - in fact, it seems to have been, for the most part, gold. I don't doubt that gold had great value in the shire, nor that there were hobbits wealthy enough to buy it. Gold ingots could always be melted down and sold to a number of buyers. Gold coins could probably be used in transactions among the very wealthy (the Tooks or the Brandybucks, for instance) or could perhaps be exchanged for silver at Michel Delving. Gems could probably be sold to wealthy hobbits (Tooks and Brandybucks come to mind again).

alatar · 04-07-2006, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

It was not all "little arkenstones" - in fact, it seems to have been, for the most part, gold.

How did Frodo buy a beer?

One of my questions, besides the seemingly lack of a mint, is who or what determined the value of the coinage, and how did the Baggins' wealth transfer into this system?

JennyHallu · 04-07-2006, 11:04 AM

Gold could have been tested for purity, and its value determined by weight. Bilbo showing up every now and again with a bit of dragon-gold to exchange into Shire-coin would certainly have furthered the Mad Baggins legends, to say the least.

02-10-2006, 04:34 AM	#1
Melilot Brandybuck Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 35	money in middle earth I just wondered, as I am re-reading FoTR, does the Shire mint its own money? There are quite a few references to money at the beginning. I believe Bilbo hands out a few pennies to children hanging around near BagEnd before his party. Frodo worries about the small amount of money he is carrying when he first suspects Aragorn of being a rogue. They pay the apparently astounding amount of 12 silver pennies for Bill the Pony, and then Butterbur pays Merry 18 silver pennies for the loss of Merry's ponies. (IMO, I don't think it was fair of Merry to accept Butterbur's money. After all, it was due to the presence of the hobbits that the inn was attacked in the first place. They were all fully aware that the animals were taken to hinder their departure. Not only did Butterbur reimburse Merry, but he would have been honor-bound to reimburse the owners of the other horses that were missing. He's lucky they were later returned to him - bar one - but he wouldn't have known that at the time.) But back to my original query. Is this money only valid in the Shire? Is the value of silver the same throughout ME? It just makes me wonder about the economy of the Shire. I would have thought that if there is a Mint, there is a Treasury and all the offices that go with it. __________________ The original and best Mel B

02-10-2006, 07:02 AM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	This is spooky because I was thinking about the same thing in a different context with regard to Lake Town and the claim on the dragon gold to pay for the repairs. This and the fact of the woodelves trade with the Lakemen which seems to involve paying for goods rather than barter implies some form of currency must have been in operation. It was certainly based on the value of the metal rather than the sophisitcated form of credit notes we use. Interestingly it seem to be the less sophisticated cultures (woodelves, dale and breemen and hobbits who have the more sophisticated economies). The highelves and dunedain seem more feudal -that probably isn't the right term but I am sure there is an economist/ social-historian amongst the downers who can explainit properly __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

04-07-2006, 10:05 AM	#3
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	This has been growing on my mind of late... It all started when I considered what Frodo did with his life prior to year 3018. How did he eat, buy beer, pay for Sam's employ? Am I just clueless regarding how such a culture or economy would function, or is this just glossed over, being mostly irrelevant to the story? Consider: Frodo inherits Bad End, and so he has no 'mortgage.' He's a bachelor with no dependents, which makes things a bit simpler. He has to, however, heat and light the place, and so either purchases or gathers wood and makes candles. Somehow I doubt that Frodo was out chopping wood. He, being a hobbit, eats like a shrew, and even if he fixes his own suppers Frodo has to get the provisions from somewhere. Of course he has a garden, but I guess that he somehow pays Sam to work there, and also Sam maintains Bag End, keeping the place standing against the tides of time. So how does he pay for the things that he does not have nor cannot make? Bilbo may have left a fortune, but what good would it be? For example, let's say that Bilbo left Frodo a bunch of little Arkenstones (not the big one, but smaller essays). Could Frodo use these to buy labor or materials? To me it would be like going to the local grocery (not that we have those in "Merica, as they've all been consumed by UberMegaBigBoxMarts) and attempting to trade a gold brick for some bread and cheese. Even if the grocer accepted the trade, eventually I would run out of gold bricks. The value in Gondor of the little arkenstones might be a princely sum, but in the Shire their value may be less - even if I bought the entire stock of the baker, I would still run out of stones, or their value would decrease as everyone (the innkeeper, Sam, etc) would have one. And what would the baker or innkeeper or Sam do with a bucket of arkenstones? If no one else accepted them - they're pretty little baubles, but you can't eat them nor burn them - the people that Frodo paid would not accept more of the same. Anyway, my concern is that Frodo's 'wealth' might not allow him to sit idle for so many years. Could he invest his money so that even if he were buying bread with arkenstones that he could live off the 'interest' on his wealth? In what could he invest that would provide a return? I just have no grasp on how that would all work in such a primitive (I don't mean that derogatively) and agrarian culture. Plus, obviously, I want to find out Frodo's secret so that I, too, can spend my days walking the countryside, looking at maps and chatting with elves. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

04-07-2006, 11:04 AM	#6
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	Gold could have been tested for purity, and its value determined by weight. Bilbo showing up every now and again with a bit of dragon-gold to exchange into Shire-coin would certainly have furthered the Mad Baggins legends, to say the least. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

04-07-2006, 10:53 AM	#4
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I have always suspected that the Shire did have a monetary system - the appearance of silver pennies in Bree being evidence of this. The Bagginses were apparently "well off" even before Bilbo's adventure. Bilbo appears to have led quite a comfortable life, at any rate. So I imagine that, even were it not for the dragon-gold, Frodo would have inherited enough money to live on. I think, though, that the treasure of Smaug might not be all that hard to convert into useable sums of money. It was not all "little arkenstones" - in fact, it seems to have been, for the most part, gold. I don't doubt that gold had great value in the shire, nor that there were hobbits wealthy enough to buy it. Gold ingots could always be melted down and sold to a number of buyers. Gold coins could probably be used in transactions among the very wealthy (the Tooks or the Brandybucks, for instance) or could perhaps be exchanged for silver at Michel Delving. Gems could probably be sold to wealthy hobbits (Tooks and Brandybucks come to mind again).