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Old 01-10-2006, 07:55 AM   #1
Thinlómien
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Silmaril Southern elves?

I was reading The Hobbit and the following passage caught my eye:
Quote:
The wine, and other goods, were brought from far away, from their kinsfolk in the South, or the vineyards of Men in distant lands.
(This is about Thranduil's wood elves, as you might know or guess.)

What is that "their kinsfolk in the South"? Does it refer to the elves of Lórien, for they are the only elves I know that live in South from Mirkwood's point of view. Or was this something Tolkien later didn't remember, and these Elves never came to his mythologies? Or can men be called Elves' kinsfolk? (I wouldn't say so.) Or are there some kind of Southern Elves mentioned in the HoME (sounds odd...)?

I'm quite puzzled. Does anyone have any ideas on this?
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Old 01-10-2006, 09:07 AM   #2
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I think that this statement is to be connected with the somewhat mysterious "Dor-winion". On Pauline Baynes's map of Middle-earth, Dor-winion (Land of Wine) is placed on the northwestern shore of the Sea of Rhun. This information is generally presumed to have come from Tolkien himself. This origin fits such details of the trade as we know. We know that the wine is brought up the Forest River from Lake Town and that the empty bottles are then sent back down the river. It may be that Lake Town gets their wine from Dor-winion and sends the barrels back down Celduin when they are empty (though I don't know whether that particular means of transportation would be as suitable over such great distances). In any case, if the wine originates in Dor Winion, and Dor Winion is indeed on the northwestern shore of the Sea of Rhun, that would fit the facts in The Hobbit, "south" being understood not to mean "the Distant South" but rather "south of the Wood-elves' realm". I have always imagined that the inhabitants of Dor-winion must be Avari.

To complicate matters, Dor-winion is also mentioned in the Narn i Chin Hurin, where it is said to lie in the "Burning South". This does seem a bit problematic, especially considering that the Narn was written well after The Hobbit - for "The Burning South" does not appear to be a particularly suitable description for the lands surrounding the Sea of Rhun; it rather suggests Harad.
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Old 01-10-2006, 09:10 AM   #3
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I think it just means that they brought the goods from the Elves of Lorien. They are kin, both groups of Elves being part of the Nandor, and mainly Silvan Elves.

I suppose the 'far away' would have been appropriate at that time, as wasn't Sauron in Dol Guldur at the time? I'm sure Gandalf and the White Council only evicted him at the end of the events in The Hobbit. With Sauron between the two realms they may as well have been thousands of miles apart.
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Old 01-10-2006, 10:56 AM   #4
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I like the idea of Dorwinion, and elf wine makers,
being in the forests off the Sea of Rhun, since there
sems to be no hint (that I recall) of Lorien being
a wine making region. And it fits in with Tolkien's
theory of giving a feeling of depth by including
barely glimpsed vistas and mysteries such as the
fate of the entwives.

For those who indulge in roleplaying, it might make
an interesting scenario to consider the history of
these elves near Rhun in the war of the ring
(perhaps they just all fled to stay with their
highly valued customer Galion, Thranduil's
butler).
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Old 01-10-2006, 11:19 AM   #5
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I've also thought that people who lived in Dorwinion were Men! I just wonder is there any basis on that or have I just imagined it.
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Old 01-10-2006, 11:35 AM   #6
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1420!

There's a bit of additional speculation here, especially at the end:
=============================
Dorwinion

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

In J. R. R. Tolkien's fictional universe of Middle-earth, Dorwinion or Dor-Winion, the Land of Wines, is a land which lay on the northwestern shores of the Sea of Rhûn.

Dorwinion was drawn at Tolkien's advice on Pauline Baynes' map of Middle-earth as lying at the end of the Carnen and Celduin, and in that position it has since appeared on other maps.

Dorwinion is mentioned in The Hobbit as the place where the special wine of the Elven King (Thranduil) comes from, and the barrels are returned by way of the Forest River to the Long Lake of Esgaroth.

It is also mentioned in the Narn i Chîn Húrin, where it was drunk in Thingol's halls of Menegroth. It is said there to lie in the Burning south, which might suggest it was a different 'Dorwinion', or may just have referred to the fact it came from the more southern lands of Rhovanion by way of the dwarf-road.

In Dorwinion was made a heady wine, which was strong enough to let even Elves get drunk and fall asleep.

Not much else is known about Dorwinion, and the name cannot easily be translated. It is not even known if the name is true Sindarin.

It has been suggested by Tolkienists that the name may not have been Sindarin at all, but come from an Avari or Nandorin tongue: if that is the case Dorwinion may have been the only Avari realm close to those areas of Middle-earth that Tolkien's stories take place. Certainly the element "Winion", apparently meaning "wine", has no probable origin in any known etymology. Support for the Elven origin of Dorwinion is that its population must have been Elvish, since it
was already well established while the Atanatári were still young.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorwinion"
====================
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Old 01-10-2006, 01:14 PM   #7
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The Lorien elves certainly would count as kinsfolk in the south and so (though not in the time of the Hobbit) would the elves who dwellt at Edhellond but that is an improbably long distance for commerce.

As for the burning south - well all things are relative and Rhun is considerably to the south of the location of the Narn i hin Hurin. If you think of Beliriand and the Shire representing Scandinavian / Celtic countries and Harad as (at least North) Africa then Rhun could be more mediterranean. I have a celtic complexion and find Spain far enough south to burn . The nature of the wine of Dorwinion gives a hint - heady and to be drunk from small bowls. this suggests a dessert wine, or a fortified wine like port or sherry rather than a say a light german riesling type.
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