LotR1-FotR-Seq08

[alatar]

Run, Frodo, run away home!

We catch a glimpse of those trolls about which Bilbo entertained the hobbit children. Frodo is looking a bit sick, and his clamminess makes me prefer the sight of the trolls. He's gone from the whiny Frodo to the gasping Frodo, and this does not garner any sympathy from me. Sam is present as always, and he dutifully looks after his master. Pippin shows wonderful bedside manner, and I'm surprised that he didn't ask about funeral arrangements for his cousin.

I didn't spot any bird nest ear wear on a troll, but I didn't look very closely either. Regardless, the inclusion of the trolls was another gem.

The wraiths are close by, as we can hear their calls, and Frodo preemptively shudders before they wail. But what's to fear? Our merry group has torches and swords, and that sent five of the Black Riders packing before. Sam is sent by Strider to find kingsfoil, or athelas. I must have watched Shrek too many times as I cannot not but make the comparison between Sam and Donkey.

Strider draws his knife to cut some of the kingsfoil, and the 'snick' sound makes me wonder from where the blade comes. Is the sheath on his wrist? But before we ponder that too much, we see Aragorn caught off guard, his head the property of the sword owner. Not once did I think that this was the enemy, as they were not so subtle or delicate. And Aragorn is not mistaken for Duncan MacLeod.

It's Arwen! And she taunts Aragorn. Such is love.

Frodo sees Arwen as she is on the other side, glowing brightly. It's not explained that he sees her like this due to his wound (newly insightful) or due to his wound (passing into the wraith world). Any bells on that horse? Though I would have preferred Glorfindel, can't say that I mind seeing Liv Tyler as here she in angelic.

Until I read what she says. "I am Arwen. I have come to help you." Ouch! What prose! I guess "Me Arwen; you Frodo. Me help He-Hobbit," was too difficult to translate into Elvish. And I understand Arwen appearing angelic, but what's with the clothes? Do they also appear as they would 'on the other side?' How Matrix!

As Strider munches on some 'foil, Arwen examines Frodo's wound. No mention about why the wound is bad, and also no clue regarding the healing properties of athelas. So why include it?

Arwen updates us as to what's happening. Five wraiths behind, four elsewhere and she's been looking for them for two days. How did she and Elrond know? And then we have a prenuptial disagreement regarding who can get Frodo to Rivendell faster. As much as I'm against having Arwen here, I do like that she states that she does not fear the wraiths. Then again, as she can best Aragorn, can probably make fire, just what does she have to fear...except for more bad dialogue?

Sam makes a valid point (though did he need to yell?) but it's not indicated that the wraiths will leave the others alone and pursue Frodo. But from the horse chase, I guess that that is implied.

Now, I like Arwen as the heroine, but this diminishes Frodo to mere baggage. More scenery long shots - love them. Then we see the Black Riders closing in. The tension builds. The scene in which Arwen plays tag with the Riders looks fake. The trees look planted and farmed; not what one would expect. And Arwen is wounded! Must be a stray Black Huorn roaming the woods. So the wraiths catch up, almost close enough to grab the mostly dead Frodo from his perch. Arwen starts some evasive maneuvers, and this gives her some space. Somehow, with the log hopping and quick turns, I get the feeling that PJ was going for a 'car-chase' scene in ME.

Finally Arwen reaches the Ford. She turns and faces the Nine, who assemble on the other side of the stream/river. The black horses blanch at the river's edge, and seem loathe to enter the water.

And now for the WORST MOVIE LINE EVER! "Give up the halfling, She-Elf!" What were the writers thinking? Cut Bombadil, break Gandalf's staff, debase dwarves, put PJ in every other scene, but this? Initially I didn't know whether to laugh hysterically or cry. So much for a literary masterpiece. There just aren't words, and I can only assume that this is some joke played by an alien species or the result of a Faustian devil deal.

Now Arwen (did I mention that we just heard the worst dialogue ever? Just want to be sure that I'm clear on that) shows some moxie and taunts the Nine. Great moment, but still tainted by the recent not to be spoken event. And though Arwen is cool, where's Frodo? Doesn't one claim baggage, by the by?

Where's the standing up in the saddle in defiance? "Go back, go back to Mordor" or was it "To Mordor we will take you?" Sorry, but still don't have my books, but did recover my FotR CDs. Anyway, would have liked some show from Frodo that he wasn't just along for the ride, but alas, Frodo's not the most important character here.

So the Nine draw their swords and start fording the stream. Here's a clue. If the rabbit that you're chasing suddenly stops, turns, bares its teeth and waits for you, you might want to reconsider that you might be walking into a trap. But the Nine must have figured that Arwen was bereft of torches and Aragorn couldn't throw one from such a distance, and so they were safe.

Arwen's chanting brings images of the movie Dragonslayer, and the Latin that I learned therein. What's that? One of the wraith turns to see a wall of water heading towards he and the other eight. Now, when we see the wide shot Arwen appears to be a horse length or two from the nearest wraith. Now, if I were a wraith I'd stay close to the ....I can't say it...Arwen. Or, in a fit of madness, return to the other side. Either prospect looks better than staying in the direct path of the flood. But I forgot, the Ringwraiths are guys. Prideful guys at that. And there was a female present, and as indicated by the dialogue, you might assume that these wraiths don't get out much and so are a bit clumsy around such beauty. So you can see them thinking, "Ya, I can outrun that! And that Elf will think that I'm cool."

I've done worse and more stupid, and so can sympathize.

But having Glorfindel/Arwen, Aragorn and the three hobbits bearing torches, keeping the wraiths in the water would have made more sense and be closer to the books, but whatever. At least the horse-headed waves, whether created by Gandalf or a computer, were included.

Anyway, the Nine presumably are destroyed.

The excitement is too much for Frodo and he collapses. Could he be trying to get CPR from Arwen? She comforts/holds him like a small child and starts to cry. And she asks that the grace given to her be passed to Frodo. Now did she just say, "Let him live as he was such a nice piece of baggage?" or "When the last ship sails, let him take my place?"

After some vertigo Frodo awakens in white. Heaven (maybe he's dead?), or overexposed? Was anyone fooled? And then we here a most-welcome voice. We find that Frodo yet lives, and is in the last homely house of Elrond on October the 24th. Surely that timestamp would allow us to figure out where we are, timeline-wise. The architecture is stunning. I wasn't sure what 'elf' would look like, and still not sure that this is it, but it may be close.

Gandalf (I love the way he looks here, smoking and all) states that Frodo has some strength in him, presumably because he...well...there was that one time...I have no clue?!? Well, he didn't die, so he must be strong, and he survived the 'dialogue of the Ford,' and if that didn't make him retch...

The excellent clip when Frodo asks of Gandalf's absence is perfect. Frodo wants to know, still looking ill, and Gandalf starts to remember something unpleasant regarding his delay.

We flash back to Orthanc where Saruman is literally mopping the floor with Gandalf. Then, in gangster fashion, Saruman hangs Gandalf over the edge by his feet. Saruman rants on about embracing the power of the Ring, and I can only assume that he wants Gandalf to join Sauron's team. Think that that could have been better put. More threats from the White Wizard, but what's this? A moth flutters by. As the eagle enters from behind Saruman Gandalf gives him a clue regarding power-sharing amongst Maia. Doesn't happen. And with that, Gandalf does some base jumping and leaps onto the back of Gwaihir. Saruman, bearing the same tree scratch as Arwen (that Huorn must still be on the loose), watches Gandalf fly away, and mutters something about him choosing death. Ah, look around, and exactly whom is choosing to snuff out all of the green?

Now, the scene was okay and all, but as later we see more of Saruman's powers (fireball, lightning, storm), I can only assume that he meant for Gandalf to escape. Was this why later the brainwashed Gandalf is for attempting the Gap of Rohan with the bearer? Gandalf the mole? Hmmm?

Frodo prompts Gandalf, and we're back in the present to continue the scene.

Now, as Frodo doesn't hear what we've just seen, does Frodo know of Saruman's treachery? Of Gandalf's humiliation?

Sam finds his Master awake, and is excited as any dog would be. Elrond welcomes Frodo, and now that I've seen The Matrix a few times, it's hard not to hear...well, you know who speaking.

The far shot of the valley stronghold of Imladris looks most enchanting, almost Thomas Kinkade-ish, and some hooded figure treads the path most likely taken by Bilbo many years ago when he came here with a pack of dwarves. We move to the shot where Frodo leans on the balcony as we see Elrond's house. A farsighted elf, that, as he made the balcony by which Frodo stands to be hobbit height. I did not catch this in the movie nor in the image in some news magazine that someone brought to my attention. Think that PJ even jokes about the obvious gaffe. The height of the rail would just be right for tripping wine-saturated elves and sending them to the valley floor.

More meetings as the four hobbits gather. Next we see what became of that old oddity Bilbo. My, he has aged. Now it's only been just over an hour in reel time, but as I'm not sure how long it's been in ME time, I can only guess that Bilbo shouldn't be as old looking as he is now. His statement that age finally caught up with him makes me believe that it was a short time. The Ring gives long life, but bereft of it I guess one does not simply continue on normally, but must then become the age that one actually is.

But how then is Gollum still walking?

Frodo reviews his uncle's book, and I bet that if you looked closely (and had the time) that what appears on the page is real and not just some squiggles. The map of the Shire and Howard Shore's score pulls at Frodo's heart, and we know that he wants to go home. Frodo also states that he's not like his adventuresome uncle, and Bilbo is very sympathetic to the feelings of his nephew. When I'd read the same in the books, and having read the Hobbit first, I was *so* glad that Frodo wasn't like his uncle.

Sam begins packing, as he too is ready to return to the safety and calm of the Shire. He feels that he got Frodo and the Ring to where others would take over the burden, and now it was time to go. We get a few minutes of home, home, home, and anyone watching movies just knows that the hobbits have just cursed themselves to more adventure.

Elrond and Gandalf discuss Frodo, and Elrond points out Frodo's resiliency. I can only assume that he means that as Frodo made it from the Shire to Rivendell while traveling with Pippin, that he is immune to stupidity-induced collateral damage. Gandalf pleads that Frodo has done enough, and Elrond starts losing it and points out every shadow and blade of grass aligned against Rivendell. We need this hobbit!

Wasn't it Gandalf making the argument for Frodo in the books?

We learn about Saruman's Uruks, that they can run fast and are immune to sunlight. Saruman is coming for the Ring. The Ringwraiths of Sauron failed, yet the Uruks will triumph?

And I'm not sure that Gandalf wanted the Ring to stay in Rivendell, but that he wanted to spare Frodo.

More people join the party. Boromir's shield immediately identifies him. The close-up of Bloom lets me know that this 'could' be Legolas, but I wouldn't be sure until later. The dwarf shown would then be Gimli. The Fellowship has gathered and now the parts only require some assembly.

Elrond's still ranting, stating that for the elves that it's "game over." He disparages the dwarves, and Gandalf is left to choose men as the saviors of ME. I guess that this is the point PJ made sure to emphasize, and that's how we got Aragorn fighting wraiths and Frodo as baggage. Elrond has no use for men, as he remembers Isildur.

An aside: I just love the detail in the fore and background of Elrond's ranting scenes. SO much stuff for a shot lasting a few seconds.

A quick jump back 3000 years (hey, that Elrond guy is old!) to see why Elrond has little faith in men. Now, if Elrond understood anything about humans, and even a little about humans with Rings of power, he could have handled the situation a little differently and increased his chances of success. Sure, yell at Isildur and order him to do something. Stay in front of him so that he can refuse to follow. Yell his name like he's a child.

Now, try it this way. Taunt Isildur that he's not 'man enough' to throw the Ring into the fire. Keep him between you and the Crack. Offer him something more shiny. And when all else fails, shoot him.

Anyway, think that Elrond has been holding a grudge? Can you see, as an elf, sitting at his table day after day and night after night and all he talks about is that one time men failed, for three thousand years! Now we know why the elves are leaving. Okay, we get it already, move on.

Gandalf seems to think that there's some human out there that could pull the human race together and finally put an end to Elrond's gripe. Just wonder who *that* could be? Aragorn? Did Gandalf just say that he could be the King of Gondor or something? But we hear that he chose exile. Or maybe he's just biding his time.

Boromir meets Aragorn, who is sitting quietly in the dark...reading. Think that the book title is "Uniting the Free Folk and Delivering ME from the Dark Lord: For Dummies." What is Boromir looking at? If that's supposed to be a painting of Isildur's showdown with Sauron, then they weren't watching the same movie that I was. And if you look closely at the mural, you can see the image of Elrond painted in the background, shaking his head.

Boromir is likeable enough, and Sean Bean does well by him. Boromir befriends Aragorn initially, though I wasn't sure why Mr. King'n'Exile introduces himself as a friend of the grey pilgrim. Finding the shards of Narsil excites Boromir, though his excitement is short-lived once he cuts his finger. Somehow he suddenly realizes that Aragorn is someone else, and so he leaves disgusted, dropping the revered Narsil on the floor.

None of that worked for me. First, Boromir's a warrior, and so I would assume that he merely looking at a blade would know if it were sharp. And the connection between Isildur and Aragorn's a bit of a jump. And then he carelessly discards this heirloom that he just was excited about. Huh?

Strider retrieves the fallen blade, takes its measure then returns it to its display...towel. He salutes the blade or the stature on which is rests.

Arwen's back. We learn possibly why Boromir was upset and why Aragorn doesn't want to be associated with Isildur. But you see what you get when you're raised by an elf with a 3000 year old grudge.

Elrond calls to a man-child. "Come here, boy. I want to tell you a story." Young Arry sits on his foster-father's lap. "Did you know that your ancestor is Isildur?" Arry starts to squirm. "Now just hold still. See, about 3000 years ago..."

Aragorn has issues. Think I know where they came from. Luckily he has the love of a woman to help him heal.

Cue romantic interlude. Think that Liv Tyler said that Viggo made sure that they used elvish dialogue and not common speech here. Now I know that this scene was placed in the movie for those 'daters' in the theater. See? I told you that it was a romantic movie. I even sent the bridge scene eCard, available from the website, to my wife. PJ may have taken some liberties, but he knew what he was doing here.

Ah, sweet romance in a fantasy movie.

We see the Evenstar, which may work for some but to me too much is made of this piece of elven glass. I assume that it's symbolic for Arwen's love and immortality, but I'd rather do without it. PJ will make use of it in the Two Towers.

Then we get the bomb when Arwen chooses mortality. Aragorn correctly rejects the gift at first - isn't that proper etiquette? - then accepts.

The kiss follows soon after.

So, in the words of Inigo Montoya, to sum up: we have the five hobbits and the Ring in Rivendell, Gandalf's back, Elrond's nonplussed, Aragorn's a King and loved by Arwen, we have other assorted elves, dwarves and men gathering about. Something's about to happen with so many meetings, but what?

[Essex]

just a quick point before I start -

"Give up the halfling, she elf" WORST MOVIE LINE EVER!

Have you seen Independence Day? Pick one of a multitude of lines from this movie and it'll beat the nazgul hands down....!

PS 'I will find you' by the Rohan Women is the worst line in the movie by far!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Anyway, think that Elrond has been holding a grudge? Can you see, as an elf, sitting at his table day after day and night after night and all he talks about is that one time men failed, for three thousand years! Now we know why the elves are leaving. Okay, we get it already, move on.

Some quick points: The above scenes have some of the best, and
worst, bits in the movies, an aggravating mix. I really like the
Arwen surprising Strider scene, it's the sexiest bit in the movies.
And including the trolls was great, especially since no reference
to them was made by the travelers, a nod toward book
readers.

As for worst movie line, to me it was Arwen at the ford's line:
"If you want him, come and claim him!"
replacing Frodo saying: "By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair,
you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" I would have had
movie Frodo (for once) suck it up, stir in the saddle, and
say that. And PJ's various angles of the nazgul at the ford were
bizarre, at times they seemed only a few feet away. Did they ride back to the middle of the ford and wait for the flood to reach them?

Agent Elrond does come off rather petulently, especially since
he and Arwen are both half-elven (at least in the book).
To borrow a Republican 1970s quote, Elrond seems to be a
"nattering nabob of negativism."

Sean Bean is a great Boromir (more sympathetic and interesting
to me then the book Boromir). I thought the incident with Narsil
was well-done and in context, indicating his conflicted views
of Isildur's Heir.

[mormegil]

I don't have much time currently and haven't yet reviewed this sequence for myself but I will say this:

For me, Glorfindel is one of my favorite characters and everything that he did in the books is great so the Arwen replacement was a rather large disappointment to me.

[Boromir88]

I'm not really bothered by Arwen replacing Glorfindel. In fact, I'm not really bothered by many of the inserted Arwen scenes through the movies. I think it was important for Jackson to establish a "love background/story" between Arwen and Aragorn, and sort of intersplice in the movies.

It would just seem odd to me (if I was only a movie viewer), Ok, Aragorn with this Arwen chick for a small part of FOTR, then he's with this Eowyn chick through TTT and most of ROTK...but wait, now he's marrying this Arwen chick? It would just seem wierd if we only see Arwen for a little bit, he's with Eowyn for a good portion of the movies, then suddenly he marries Arwen. So, I didn't mind giving Arwen a bigger role, and mixing in some scenes between her and Aragorn, because they need to establish the love connection between the two, and to just have Arwen show up in the end marrying Aragorn I think would cause a lot of questions.

Also, as much as I like Glorfindel, he makes basically this one time appearance and we never see him again. (Well at the Council, but I don't count that ) So, I don't mind Arwen bumping Glorfindel off the horse and bumping up her role a bit. Though, I do agree with Alatar and Tuor, the lines used and the script was rather weak and bad during these parts.

I also have a lot of mixed feelings for these sequences, (and the ones to follow), theres some really good stuff, then theres times I just shake my head. As already mentioned the scene with Aragorn, Boromir, and Narsil, is great and I want to expand that to the talk between Aragorn and Arwen.


This is a great piece of filming when you have Arwen say the line "Why do you fear the past?" Great filming, because right behind them is the answer. It's a picture of Isildur's confrontation with Sauron.

As far as some of the more disappointing parts of the movies, I think most have been already mentioned so all I'll add is Rivendell (or I should actually direct this to Elrond) doesn't come off as the "Last Homely House west of the Misty Mountains" as I imagined it.

[Lush]

Mmmm.

I adored the Nazgul chase scene. I thought it was very well done, very urgent, very beautiful and scary. Frodo's thunder is stolen, but we see him so much in the later parts of the film, as well as the other two films, that I don't really mind it as much.

Arwen is luscious and ethereal. A friend of mine, a movie critic named Larry Toppman, once pointed out that Peter Jackson has elicited surprisingly good performances from both Liv Tyler and Sean Bean, actors who have largely relied on their looks to get by in other films.

I have quibbles with the cranky Elrond, but I suppose they did that so that he could offset Gandalf.

I like the way Legolas and the rest of the Fellowship are introduced, but I'm obviously biased. I will say this, though, watch Legolas later in the movie; I think they do a fine job with showing, through him, the Elvish attitude toward mortality.

Also, I think that the music on the bridge scene deserves an honourable mention. Enya does a great job getting her mouth around all this lyrical Elvish.

[Essex]

sorry been a bit tardy with my review. first of all

Originally Posted by alatar

He's gone from the whiny Frodo to the gasping Frodo, and this does not garner any sympathy from me.

he does from me. ever since his 'what must I do' line I've liked movie Frodo. And you try not to whine if you've got some balck riders on your tail!

Regardless, the inclusion of the trolls was another gem.

yes, another example of the hard work and LOVE the filmmakers put into this story

The wraiths are close by, as we can hear their calls, and Frodo preemptively shudders before they wail. But what's to fear? Our merry group has torches and swords, and that sent five of the Black Riders packing before.

Hang on - that's unfair. the book guys lasted 12 DAYS in the wilderness after the attack before Glorfindel found them. So Jackson is not making ANY CHNAGE WHATSOEVER to the inability of the ringwraiths to track them down. Book Aragorn DID attack them with fire in the book as well, it's just that we do not SEE it in the book - Frodo sees the start of aragorn's attack before he faints.

I think we need to also remember the source material the scriptwriters worked from before we critique the films. The only difference being that 1/ frodo stabbed the WK with his blade (but this made no difference) and 2/ he shouted elbereth githoniel which (in book terms) obviusly DID. But as I stated before, we couldn;t really see this in the movie (ie the ringwraiths running off cos he shouted a weird name out!)

Until I read what she says. "I am Arwen. I have come to help you." Ouch! What prose!

What, instead of the original ''Hail, and well met at last!'' as Glorfindel says in the book. Would have this have worked in the Movie? Alas, I think not.

As Strider munches on some 'foil, Arwen examines Frodo's wound. No mention about why the wound is bad, and also no clue regarding the healing properties of athelas. So why include it?

- as a fleeting nod of the cap to the houses of healing scene - when I saw this in the first film, I then realised we wouldn't be getting a house of healing scene in movie 3.

Arwen updates us as to what's happening. Five wraiths behind, four elsewhere and she's been looking for them for two days. How did she and Elrond know?

Could we have all this prose in explaining what happened in these fast moving scenes - would have all of the following worked? I think not....

'Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned. There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. It was thought that you might turn far aside to avoid pursuit, and become lost in the Wilderness.
'It was my lot to take the Road, and I came to the Bridge of Mitheithel, and left a token there, nigh on seven days ago. Three of the servants of Sauron were upon the Bridge, but they withdrew and I pursued them westward. I came also upon two others, but they turned away southward. Since then I have searched for your trail. Two days ago I found it, and followed it over the Bridge; and today I marked where you descended from the hills again. But come! There is no time for further news. Since you are here we must risk the peril of the Road and go. There are five behind us, and when they find your trail upon the Road they will ride after us like the wind. And they are not all. Where the other four may be, I do not know. I fear that we may find the Ford is already held against us.'

Now, I like Arwen as the heroine, but this diminishes Frodo to mere baggage.

Fair point. - I admit this DOES diminish his character at the Fords.

re your problems with the nazgul entering and fording the river. It was an elvish river remember, and Tolkien has stated before (but not explained) that they have a 'fear' of this water, don't they?

But having Glorfindel/Arwen, Aragorn and the three hobbits bearing torches, keeping the wraiths in the water would have made more sense and be closer to the books, but whatever. At least the horse-headed waves, whether created by Gandalf or a computer, were included.

yes, but we couldn't have this and a great 'car chase' scene as you put it before......

Now, the scene was okay and all, but as later we see more of Saruman's powers (fireball, lightning, storm), I can only assume that he meant for Gandalf to escape.

I don't think Saurman would attack the Lord of the Eagles. Would you?

A farsighted elf, that, as he made the balcony by which Frodo stands to be hobbit height. I did not catch this in the movie nor in the image in some news magazine that someone brought to my attention. Think that PJ even jokes about the obvious gaffe. The height of the rail would just be right for tripping wine-saturated elves and sending them to the valley floor.

Or perhaps some hobbit size rooms from the last time Bilbo was there 77 years before, and from the 17 years he's spent there since the party?

Next we see what became of that old oddity Bilbo. My, he has aged. Now it's only been just over an hour in reel time, but as I'm not sure how long it's been in ME time, I can only guess that Bilbo shouldn't be as old looking as he is now. His statement that age finally caught up with him makes me believe that it was a short time. The Ring gives long life, but bereft of it I guess one does not simply continue on normally, but must then become the age that one actually is.

But how then is Gollum still walking?

again, an issue with the original text, not the movie.....

Sam begins packing, as he too is ready to return to the safety and calm of the Shire. He feels that he got Frodo and the Ring to where others would take over the burden, and now it was time to go. We get a few minutes of home, home, home, and anyone watching movies just knows that the hobbits have just cursed themselves to more adventure.

- this is exactly why it was added - to add credence to Frodo's feelings when he claimed the Quest at the Council.....

Saruman is coming for the Ring. The Ringwraiths of Sauron failed, yet the Uruks will triumph?

book not movie issue again!

First, Boromir's a warrior, and so I would assume that he merely looking at a blade would know if it were sharp.

I believe this is put in at a request of Bean so he could mention his character's name 'Sharp' from his other main work......no joke.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir

I'm not really bothered by Arwen replacing Glorfindel. In fact, I'm not really bothered by many of the inserted Arwen scenes through the movies. I think it was important for Jackson to establish a "love background/story" between Arwen and Aragorn, and sort of intersplice in the movies.

My major complaint is not with the insertion of Arwen into the story, it is the over insertion of her throughout the story and this is a perfect example. Why not quickly introduce Glorfindel as an Elf-Lord and given him a quick spot at the Council of Elrond? Arwen is no warrior and she doesn't ride to adventure...she is no Eowyn. It wouldn't have taken longer. I really would have liked them to stay true to the book in this instance and have Glorfindel put Frodo on his horse and Frodo cross the Fords alone. This would also have saved us from the wretched "she-elf" line. Then quickly introdcue Arwen during Rivendell and show her love for Aragorn there.

One other question. Why does Aragorn shun his past? I don't recall him being ashamed of being Isildur's heir in the book, in fact he seemed to be rather proud of the fact. But here (I think in this sequence) we get Arwen saying "You are Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself. Why?

[Boromir88]

I believe this is put in at a request of Bean so he could mention his character's name 'Sharp' from his other main work......no joke.

I wouldn't doubt it, Bean did play in a rather extensive series called "Sharpes..._____" (insert multiple names), where he played a man name Richard Sharpe.

I don't doubt it, because we see in TTT EE when Saruman falls down and is impaled on a wheel of spikes, this is a reference back to Lee's movie days as Dracula...when he is impaled on a wheel of spikes. So, I wouldn't doubt if this is the same case with Bean.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by mormegil

One other question. Why does Aragorn shun his past? I don't recall him being ashamed of being Isildur's heir in the book, in fact he seemed to be rather proud of the fact. But here (I think in this sequence) we get Arwen saying "You are Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself. Why?

different context, I admit, but book Aragorn himself says it at the Council of Elrond

I am but the heir of Isildur, not Isildur himself.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

"I am but the heir of Isildur, not Isildur himself."

But in a vastly different context. PJ casts Isildur
negatively, in the book Aragorn implies Isildur is
above him in greatness of ability.

I believe PJ and friends rationale was the
infamous "story arc."

[doug*platypus]

Ah, so we come to one of my least favourite scenes in the FOTR movie, Ford Follies.

Why sneak up on your boyfriend with a naked sword? Doesn't seem very nice to me, but I guess there's no telling what kinky games these two got up to on their long walks in the woods around Imladris.

Quite nice that Frodo sees Arwen as she is on the "other side", perhaps somewhat of a homage to Glorfindel as he sees him at the ford, when he is slipping into that other world himself.

But overall, I have to disagree with the appearance of Arwen as a "warrior princess", if only because she never displays that tendency again in the trilogy. I think it would have been just as well to introduce her at Rivendell. And why not have Glorfindel here, if only for a single scene? Well, I guess with the plethora of characters there are, PJ didn't wish to add yet another unfamiliar face. Understandable, I suppose, but then you might easily say, what about all those hobbits we saw at Bilbo's party, or in other scenes around Hobbiton? We weren't overly confused by Rosie Cotton, for example.

The horse chase (to coin a term) was fairly exciting, but I see no real reason to deviate from the book's version of events, which was exciting enough as it stood. By this I mean, keep Frodo with the others a little longer, have a slightly shorter chase (although still quite decent), and have his friends running towards the Riders with flaming torches.

I think that Frodo succumbs to his wound a little too far, a little too fast. It would have been nice to see some of the resilience which Gandalf later praises him for. He gets reduced to baggage quite quickly, and we get a much altered (for the worse) version of events at the ford. I would have loved to see Elijah Frodo astride Asfaloth, defying the servants of Sauron with his blade drawn! Alas! We get what is also in my opinion the worst line in the movies, "Give up the halfling, she-elf!". Then, coming at a very close second worst line in the movies, "If you want him, come and claim him". Then Arwen raises the river in flood, all on her own! No Gandalf or Elven Ring to aid her. If she is so powerful, then she should have been sent with the Fellowship instead of Gandalf!

The Riders see their plight, and attempt to escape... by riding downstream, instead of back to the further shore. Here we indeed miss the flaming brands of Strider and Glorfindel, as some explanation of why the Riders could not retreat. But it's all too much for Frodo, as he finally succumbs to the Morgul spell. So what does Arwen do? Gives up her immortality then and there, so that she can save Frodo's life! Is she allowed to do this? Even Lúthien had to plead her case to Mandos. Ladies and gentlemen, presenting the most powerful elf to have ever lived... movie Arwen. IMHO, this only adds to the confusion. Why not just have Frodo faint, and be healed by Elrond.

However that may be, Frodo awakes in Rivendell. Very peaceful, serene scene, perfect for convalescence. Gandalf's flashback is well done, and lends some credence to the theory that his entire capture at Orthanc could have been shown via flashback. I don't think having Saruman there at the time of Gandalf's escape works very well, however. Remember, this is the guy who can later control the weather over Caradhras, hundreds of leagues away. Yet he can't prevent Gwaihir making off with Gandalf right under his nose? Come on...

I appreciate the amount of work that went into creating Rivendell, but it wasn't as I had imagined it. To me, Rivendell has always had more of a homely feel (being indeed the Last Homely House). A little more indoors, rather than every room so exposed to the elements. Movie Rivendell must be mighty cold in winter! I think that showing the Hall of Fire would have gone a long way to showing that the place was not so alien and foreign, and that all folk, hobbits, dwarves, men and elves could be happy there. PJs elves seem to be a little too aloof at times.

I didn't like the scene between Gandalf and Elrond, mainly because Agent Elrond comes off as a bit of a jerk. He seems a bit too keen to use Frodo to solve Middle Earth's problem (although, admittedly, even book Elrond states that Frodo was chosen to do so). And he maligns the other races a bit too much. He's so "Elves are all that, and noone else is!" despite having been allied with Men in the Last Alliance. Excellent flashback to the Sammath Naur, though. "Isildur!". Here we learn that Aragorn is reluctant to take the throne of Gondor. Was this a credible change from the book? There must be a thread about that somewhere; I must delve into the Movies forum and search it out. I would have thought that the task of reclaiming the throne should be story enough, without Aragorn's self-doubt.

Seeing the Fellowship arrive was kinda cool. No problem for me that Boromir arrives on a horse... minor detail.

Not so sure what the filmmakers hoped to achieve by showing Boromir handling Narsil. Apart from, of course, the "still Sharpe" hook. Here they also expand on their weakness of Men theme, with Aragorn expressing his doubts to Arwen. I can't see why bother wasting time on this, to me, uninteresting and unnecessary sub-theme. They could have just spent some quality time together, without Arwen having to reassure the unconfident movie Aragorn.

The Evenstar stuff was quite touching, but I'm not quite sure of it as symbolic of immortality. Of love, fair enough, but I don't see it as quite as simple as: here's the Evenstar, so I'm not immortal anymore. I guess it works okay, though. The bridge scene is romantic. How well does the Arwen-Aragorn romance play out throughout the trilogy? Must be a thread on this somewhere, I shall get to work digging it out. I hate to play devil's advocate, but after having recently watched Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith and FOTR, I have to say that Anakin and Padmé's love affair sets a kind of benchmark for romance in (space) fantasy. There, that at least should elicit some replies fairly quickly...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by doug*platypus

Must be a thread on this somewhere, I shall get to work digging it out. I hate to play devil's advocate, but after having recently watched Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith and FOTR, I have to say that Anakin and Padmé's love affair sets a kind of benchmark for romance in (space) fantasy. There, that at least should elicit some replies fairly quickly...

Ahhh!!! On the way out, and so this must be brief. Having just watched 'Clones' for the fifth time (the kids have become Star Wars fans ), I can only assume that, when you speak of this benchmark, you can only mean 'foot stool.'

[doug*platypus]

It seems I was a bit, hoom, well, hasty in my earlier post when decrying the power that the filmmakers gave to Arwen, letting her revoke her immortality and pass a gift on to Frodo:

doug*platypus

So what does Arwen do? Gives up her immortality then and there, so that she can save Frodo's life! Is she allowed to do this? Even Lúthien had to plead her case to Mandos.

Having just finished a re-read of the book, I spied the line in Many Partings which no doubt inspired PJ and co to do as they did:

The Return of the King

"But in my stead you shall go, Ring-bearer, when the time comes, and if you then desire it."

It still is a bit of a surprise to me that Arwen can make this choice for Frodo, but I am glad that she can! And hey, it's canonical. So I guess for afternoon tea I'll be serving up a steaming dish of my own words. Mmm... words...

[mark12_30]

Luthien had to ask for the choice, but she wasn't half-elven. Her descendants were half-elven; and they were GIVEN the choice. Arwen always knew she would have to choose. So did Elladan and Elrohir. Arwen's choice left a spot open on the ship into the West; but notice that Bilbo and (eventually) Sam also went. The letters say that Gandalf probably also had something to do with it, and perhaps Galadriel (if I remember correctly.) See footnote (on page 327) to letter 246.

Some folks think that Shadowfax went West too.

[alatar]

Whether Arwen could give away her boat ticket or not, in Tolkien's world, in PJ's world it seems that she can. However, I can see where it could be confusing, as, at the Fords, Warrior Princess Arwen seems to be giving away her mortality ("grace") to Frodo.

Originally Posted by The Script

"What grace is given me, let it pass to him. Let him be spared. Save him."

Later, when he's recovered and on his way to more fun adventures, she decides to 'take it back' as she goes along with the other elves in their slow walk to the Havens. Then, after having a vision of children to come, she yet again turns her back on the West and so runs back to Elrond (and Aragorn eventually), leaving her place in the West 'available.' isn't it said, never ask an elf for directions?

What an appropriate time to be discussing Frodo sitting in the AmanAir terminal on standby...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by doug*platypus

I hate to play devil's advocate, but after having recently watched Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith and FOTR, I have to say that Anakin and Padmé's love affair sets a kind of benchmark for romance in (space) fantasy.

Somehow - don't remember the exact reason - I started reading criticisms regarding the the Star Wars prequels and specifically the acting abilities, or lack thereof, of the actor who played the part of Anakin, the young Darth Vader. Now, having watched the AotC film with the kids, I noted that Hayden Christensen was very stiff and seemed to lack emotion. His portrayal of the Anakin character was widely panned, and he seems to have garnered some bad feelings from the fans.

Then I read more, and it was noted that the actor had done better work in other films, and so, given that other actors with longer track records were similarly not shown in the best light in the Star Wars prequels, it then obviously comes down to the director and the material. Say what you want about Elijah Wood, or Sean Astin, or any of the other actors in these films, note that PJ et al first picked these persons, then directed them to do, say, express specific ideas in a script written by the same PJ crew from the Tolkien books.

So, good or bad, it ultimately comes back to Peter Jackson.

Think that this is obvious, but I wanted to say it anyway, Getting off my soapbox now...

[alatar]

My son, becoming more interested in the Star Wars movies, purchased with his 'Tooth Fairy' money the third episode in the series ("Revenge of the Sith"). I stayed up late to watch it so at least I would have possible explanations for all of the questions that I get asked about the characters in the Star Wars universe.

That and it wasn't that bad.

Anyway, I noted that Natalie Portman's performance wasn't stellar, and she I know has a track record of good acting, and so I conclude that the directors/producers are in some part (major?) responsible for the actor's on-screen performance. We can't blame it all on Elijah, Sean or John.

[Břicho]

Certainly. Very true. Lucas makes even great actors like Liam Neeson look bad. I don't think that Peter Jackson did a bad job of directing the actors though, I think they are nearly all great--the only problems I have with the characters in the movies are the way a few of them are written and some of Jackson's choices.

[alatar]

Exactly. Just want to be sure that, as with the praise, that the blame is spread evenly as well. Great actors crash and burn with poor scripts, and mediocre actors are buoyed/uplifted by great writing/directlng.

My two cents.

And, Břicho, welcome to the Downs!