Who delivered the final blow? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Fordim Hedgethistle · 12-05-2005, 12:29 PM

This is a copy of a PM I received from Boromir88 -- it's pretty self-explanatory (and interesting).

Quote:

Well, I can't find the option to create a poll, so apparently I can't make one. But, I do have a knew one that you can sink your hands into, if you would so like?

Who delivered the final blow?

Elendil
Gil-galad
Isildur

Which one delivered the final blow in killing Sauron (physical form of course)?

Here's some info I've gathered that can be used.

Quote:

Quote:

But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.~The Silmarillion

Quote:

'Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death blow?"~ Isildur to Elrond and Cirdan: The Silmarillion

So, on one hand we have Elendil and Gil-galad fighting with Sauron, and Sauron was "overthrown" and thrown back. Was he mortally wounded though?

Then on the other we have Isildur bragging he did it. And also, you have to wonder if Elendil and Gil-galad had "killed" Sauron, before Isildur cut off the ring. Or, was it the "cutting off the Ring," that delivered the final blow to Sauron?

Just some thoughts on another poll.

Have at it! (And thanks to Boro for a great topic -- I was beginning to go into Poll Withdrawal.

Farael · 12-05-2005, 12:49 PM

I Went with Isidur. Sauron would have probably recovered from whatever Gil-Galad and Elendil did to him, but when he lost the ring he lost part of his strenght/power and was defeated (but not killed)

As the question is "who delivered the final blow?" I'll say Isidur. He delivered the final blow, even if the whole situation was staged by Gil-Galad and Elendil

Boromir88 · 12-05-2005, 02:04 PM

Thanks Fordim, for going through with it.

I think the biggest question comes in was, Sauron "mortally" (as in his body) wounded by Gil-galad and Elendil? Or was he not "dead" until Isildur cuts the Ring from his finger?

Isildur boasts that he delivered the final blow, but again this could be nothing more than him bragging. (And I can certainly see Isildur as the bragging type).

So, the biggest question is. Would Sauron have been able to recover (meaning his physical body wasn't "mortally wounded") if Isildur hadn't cut off the Ring?

I agree with Farael, because to me this quote here...

Quote:

Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

suggests that Sauron's spirit didn't leave his body until after Isildur cut off the Ring?

However, I think there's other quotes referring to Elendil and Gil-galad as "overthrowing" Sauron. So, really, it just seems like a toss-up. Whether Sauron's body was dead before Isildur cut the Ring, and perhaps his spirit just decided to leave it's "dead body" after Isildur cut off the Ring. Perhaps, his body was already "dead" before Isildur cut off the Ring, his spirit just decided to leave after the Ring was cut off?

the phantom · 12-05-2005, 02:39 PM

Perhaps no one delivered a killing blow. Maybe, even after his Ring was cut off, he would not have died had he been left alone.

But Sauron knew that he was injured, his forces were defeated, his Ring was not directly under his control, and that he would soon be "killed", and so chose to leave his physical form before he suffered an actual death blow- a blow that would have left him no choice but to die.

Bêthberry · 12-05-2005, 02:43 PM

Oh gosh, I saw the poll title and was hoping I could pick--or do a write-in--for Peter Jackson.

Farael · 12-05-2005, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir

However, I think there's other quotes referring to Elendil and Gil-galad as "overthrowing" Sauron.

Well, Gil-Galad and Elendil were the kings and captains of the armies that defeated Sauron's, but Isidur actually defeated Sauron himself. Or well, they all did, but Isidur cut the ring which prompted the escape of Sauron's soul from his body.

Kuruharan · 12-05-2005, 04:56 PM

This makes two polls in a row where I'm going to have to abstain for lack of evidence.

I don't think Tolkien's account allows for certainty. We don't know enough details about what happened.

Celebuial · 12-05-2005, 06:15 PM

Guess I'm gonna have to abstain from this one too. T'wasn't really a killing blow now, was it? Hmmm...

mormegil · 12-05-2005, 06:28 PM

I just don't see that robbing Sauron of his ring would 'kill' him, so to speak. The fact is he lived after when Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo had his ring. Therefore it is evident that Isildur courageously cut the ring from an already 'dead' Sauron, thus robbing him of a great source of power. The final blow was delivered by either Elendil or Gil-Galad and I choose Gil-Galad because, quite frankly, I like him better.

The 1,000 Reader · 12-05-2005, 06:56 PM

To talk sense into fanatical Sauron fans that may visit the board and think that Sauron is their "Ultra super-duper badguy!11", Sauron isn't that great. The Tale of Beren and Luthien shows that he is highly egotistical and lacking combat experience, even stupid(sending the wolves one by one and attacking Luthien when she was no threat to him and Huan had just dropped his guard.)

With this past experience, I doubt Sauron would have gotten up a few seconds later. I believe that Isildur, as previously stated, bravely cut the ring off of a dead Sauron.

I feel that Elendil slew Sauron. Gil-Galad falling by the black hand is mentioned first and even though it(a passage) was mainly written to say that Narsil broke, I believe the passage is also saying that Elendil lived longer and dealt the finishing blow.

This is just my opinion.

Boromir88 · 12-05-2005, 07:11 PM

I think Kuru puts it quite simply, yet makes a very good point. There's not a lot of info as far as the actual battle in concerned. And also, the info that we do have is rather ambiguous or even contradicting.

Ambiguous as in, whether Sauron was dead before Isildur cut off the Ring, and his spirit only decided to leave after the Ring was cut from his hand. Or, whether it was the cutting off of the Ring that did Sauron in and forced his spirit to flee the body.

Contradicting as in, it was Elendil and Gil-galad who "overthrew Sauron" (but as Farael says this could just mean that since Elendil and Gil-galad were the "Generals" there army "overthrew" Sauron's army). Or it was Elendil and Gil-galad who literally "thred" down and killed Sauron (physically). Then we have Isildur, who grant it could just be boasting about the entire thing.

Mormegil brings up a good point:

Quote:

I just don't see that robbing Sauron of his ring would 'kill' him, so to speak. The fact is he lived after when Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo had his ring.

If Sauron could live without the Ring (which he could), than perhaps it wasn't the loss of his ring that "killed" him, but he was already dead, his spirit just decided to leave at that time. I wonder if his spirit would have left if Isildur didn't cut off the Ring? (Again, this goes back to what Kuru was saying, basically a toss up, there's not enough info).

And I like the logic 1,000 Reader uses to pick Elendil, over Gil-galad. But, perhaps there should have been a fourth option in that it was both Elendil and Gil-galad, because they are both given the credit. But, I think since the question is who delivered the final blow, then it's gotta be one person. And we get back to not enough info to determine. So, basically it's whatever you believe and supporting it.

View Poll Results: Who delivered the final blow?
Elendil	7	25.00%
Gil-Galad	3	10.71%
Isildur	18	64.29%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

12-05-2005, 02:39 PM	#4
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Perhaps no one delivered a killing blow. Maybe, even after his Ring was cut off, he would not have died had he been left alone. But Sauron knew that he was injured, his forces were defeated, his Ring was not directly under his control, and that he would soon be "killed", and so chose to leave his physical form before he suffered an actual death blow- a blow that would have left him no choice but to die. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

12-05-2005, 02:43 PM	#5
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,997	Oh gosh, I saw the poll title and was hoping I could pick--or do a write-in--for Peter Jackson. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

12-05-2005, 04:56 PM	#7
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,592	Guess what... This makes two polls in a row where I'm going to have to abstain for lack of evidence. I don't think Tolkien's account allows for certainty. We don't know enough details about what happened. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

12-05-2005, 06:15 PM	#8
Celebuial Wight Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cardiff during term time/Leicester in the holl's Posts: 129	Guess I'm gonna have to abstain from this one too. T'wasn't really a killing blow now, was it? Hmmm... __________________ Ú cilith ‘war. Ú men ‘war. Boe min mebi. Boe min bango.

12-05-2005, 12:49 PM	#2
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	I Went with Isidur. Sauron would have probably recovered from whatever Gil-Galad and Elendil did to him, but when he lost the ring he lost part of his strenght/power and was defeated (but not killed) As the question is "who delivered the final blow?" I'll say Isidur. He delivered the final blow, even if the whole situation was staged by Gil-Galad and Elendil

12-05-2005, 06:28 PM	#9
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,648	I just don't see that robbing Sauron of his ring would 'kill' him, so to speak. The fact is he lived after when Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo had his ring. Therefore it is evident that Isildur courageously cut the ring from an already 'dead' Sauron, thus robbing him of a great source of power. The final blow was delivered by either Elendil or Gil-Galad and I choose Gil-Galad because, quite frankly, I like him better. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

12-05-2005, 06:56 PM	#10
The 1,000 Reader Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps. Posts: 527	To talk sense into fanatical Sauron fans that may visit the board and think that Sauron is their "Ultra super-duper badguy!11", Sauron isn't that great. The Tale of Beren and Luthien shows that he is highly egotistical and lacking combat experience, even stupid(sending the wolves one by one and attacking Luthien when she was no threat to him and Huan had just dropped his guard.) With this past experience, I doubt Sauron would have gotten up a few seconds later. I believe that Isildur, as previously stated, bravely cut the ring off of a dead Sauron. I feel that Elendil slew Sauron. Gil-Galad falling by the black hand is mentioned first and even though it(a passage) was mainly written to say that Narsil broke, I believe the passage is also saying that Elendil lived longer and dealt the finishing blow. This is just my opinion. __________________ "And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains Last edited by The 1,000 Reader; 12-06-2005 at 05:18 PM.