LotR1-FotR-Seq06 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 11-22-2005, 10:06 PM

Rain cannot dampen all flames.

The hand of Saruman almost caresses the palantir with claw-like hands as he pledges fealty to his Lord Sauron. The toady in white awaits the orders from the Eye. And Sauron commands him to build an army "worthy of Mordor." Not sure what the loquacious Eye said there at first - can an Eye clear its throat? Saruman meditates on the deed, then with the help of his new henchmen - smaller orcs with a penchant for piercings - he begins the reshaping of Isengard.

What is strange is the question from the 'Orc with nose-bridge rings.' It doesn't ask, "What are your orders, m'lord?" but "What orders from Mordor, my lord? What does the Eye command?" Was the orc eavesdropping on Saruman's conversation? Were the orcs sent by Sauron to assist Saruman? I guess it could be possible that after Saruman got off of the phone that he sat around for a few weeks just thinking over the task.

"Should I use a white hand logo or something with more flair? Should a platoon consist of 20 or 24 soldiers? And would a Mordor-worthy army include a brass band?"

Decisions, decisions.

Anyway, so as Saruman sits there thinking the orcs travel from Mordor to Nan Curunír. The orc leader is told to consult Saruman regarding new orders once they arrive. And what does the second orc statement say in regards to all present in the room? I interpret it as all are beneath the pharaonic Sauron; none of his servants or slaves is of any consideration.

Smart thinking there, Saruman. You should have been asking Gandalf for help with your codependency.

So the orcs start their revamping of the grounds. They don't hack the trees down, but pull them over with chains in a very coordinated operation. I won't even go into all of the fun that these little orcs would be having doing that.

Ahh...yes I will. I've pulled out old tree stumps, and they're not that easy. Now, I'm no dendrologist, and really haven't a clue what type of tree that is that the orcs are working on, but it looks to have a root system more like a pine (more surface roots) than a maple (deeper roots). But this is quibbling. Peter Jackson makes sure to note that these are not real trees, and that they used one or two fake ones to shoot the whole scene. He also states that one of Tolkien's themes is that "industry destroys nature" and that Tolkien would have been appalled if real trees had been used.

Like all of the energy (jet fuel, petrol, electricity), textiles (props made of plastics), hardware (computers, cameras), humans (tramplings, waste products), horses (see humans) had no effect on the environment. But at least two trees weren't added to the list.

But back to the theme. Was it Aulë who said that the Children would need wood to burn? And burning trees is bad, yet burning nicotine-laced leaves is good? My point is that I don't think that Tolkien thought that all industry was all bad, but that care was needed so that it didn't devolve into orc work.

All of deforestation noise awakes Gandalf, who was sleeping off his vertigo. But at least he's in time for a shower. Is that a pentagram etched into the floor of Orthanc's roof? And in regards to the tower itself, wasn't Orthanc constructed to allow wise men to gaze at stars? Pretty silly design, then, as there are four points by which one's viewing is occluded.

And just how did Gandalf get up there? Is there cunning stonework involved where a trap door opens in the floor? Or do we have steps encircling the outside that just happen to be out of view?

And what foresight by Saruman! As he left Aman, surely he requested that his staff be shaped to look like...say...some tower in the center of the Angrenost. "Nah, I don't have any plans to set myself as a Power..." he said to Cirdan as he stepped ashore.

Middle Earth is just a magical place. Somewhat like Camelot, here the rain falls only on the protagonists. And Saruman wearing one of those plastic hair nets might look out of place - unless he were short, then it would be a great gag - and so it was lucky that the rain never hits the ground folk.

As the hacking begins, Gandalf finds what comfort he can out of the wind, sitting with his back to one of the spires. Truly a moment where Gandalf appears to despair, though those of us who know him well know that he's not 'done for' or 'done in' yet. Maybe what keeps him going is thinking that Frodo has found safety in Bree, and may even have found some help unlooked for there. Surely if the Ring had fallen into enemy hands, there'd be some sign by now. Could Frodo even be on his way to Rivendell?

mormegil · 11-23-2005, 12:36 AM

A very short sequence yet it helps to tie the story lines together rather well. First we learn that Saruman is a traitor, flash back to the hobbits and meet Strider, now we learn a bit more of Saruman's treason and we see the Palantir in action.

One thing that impressed me is Saruman's expression after receiving the order to build an army. In the books we learn that Gandalf still had hope that Saruman might turn to good though there was never much hope. Here I think we see a bit of inner-strife with Saruman. He knows that if he begins this army there is no turning back, he will spoil the earth and create an orc army. I get the feeling that there is some nagging doubt in the back of his mind, a thought of good that he must overcome. The evil side wins and he reminds of of Emperor Palpatine in his tone and expression when he says "rip them all down" Palpatine says something like "kill them all". We now know that Saruman has been truly taken into service of Mordor and he is not coming back, he has fully been overcome by the evil influence of Sauron.

Again, we see that Saruman is merely Sauron's puppet but that is consistent with the earlier portrayal of him and his character. It is good to see the the spoling of Isengard did not occur prior to Gandalf's arrival, this shows good thought on PJ's part in keeping this part of the story line consistent.

Quick but a good sequence to move the story along.

Tuor in Gondolin · 11-23-2005, 11:49 AM

This sequence generally works, but one problem with PJ's version
is seen here (time sequence). Even forgetting the bizarre
uruk-hai "births", it takes some time to create and meld an
army. To do it virtually instantaneously as in the movie
stretches credulity and "suspension of disbelief." And
wouldn't female orcsees make quite nassty amazonian warriors? Perhaps riding wargs?

Not the pumped up movie wargs but the book types, which I see as more wolves on steroids then the PJ's giants.

One movie bit that was quite well done was Saruman's brief
pondering of his chat with the eyeball before he acted. It is
just about the only (granted implied) movie Saruman doubt.

alatar · 11-23-2005, 01:11 PM

Interesting that Saruman's moment of quiet pondering is seen as "a moment of doubt," as I didn't see it that way. I saw a wizard plumbing the depths of his knowledge and craft to create the vile Uruks. In the books it's more 'crossbreeding and selection;' here I'm not sure how Saruman begets the Uruks (Plants Uruk seeds in mud?). What does he use as his source material, as I would assume that not even movie-Saruman can create, but only pervert.

**The Saucepan Man** · 11-23-2005, 05:48 PM

Cloning?

alatar · 11-23-2005, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Cloning?

As this comment is in regards to a PJ production, I assume that you left out the 'w.'

Essex · 11-24-2005, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

In the books it's more 'crossbreeding and selection;' here I'm not sure how Saruman begets the Uruks (Plants Uruk seeds in mud?). What does he use as his source material, as I would assume that not even movie-Saruman can create, but only pervert.

It's the same in the movies - here 's what movie gandalf says to Elrond

Quote:

By foul craft Saruman has crossed Orcs with Goblin-men. He's breeding an army in the caverns of Isengard.

And why do we get het up on the mechanics of how something happened 'magically' when the most 'magic' thing that happens is a Ring that makes its wearer INVISIBLE. I can't remember anyone ever mentioning the impossibility of that? (mainly because it's Tolkien's idea!) - Jackson has to put across cinematically what Tolkien can mention. I think he does a very good job at it.

alatar · 11-24-2005, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essex

It's the same in the movies... And why do we get het up on the mechanics of how something happened 'magically' when the most 'magic' thing that happens is a Ring that makes its wearer INVISIBLE. I can't remember anyone ever mentioning the impossibility of that? (mainly because it's Tolkien's idea!) - Jackson has to put across cinematically what Tolkien can mention. I think he does a very good job at it.

Note that I'm not up nights pondering PJ's mudspawn - I'm up due to my own spawn...

But the question remains: why did PJ choose to show the Uruks as being born from some mud pit, whereas in the books it's much different. Weren't the pillars and chains that surrounded Orthanc used to 'train' and/or select orcs for resistance to sunlight? If not, then they are unusual lawn ornaments. But maybe I misread that.

And I completely understand why PJ sidesteps the other issue regarding where we get orc/human hybrids, as that's a topic not fit for a PG-13 movie, and maybe not even here.

11-22-2005, 10:06 PM	#1
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	LotR1-FotR-Seq06 Rain cannot dampen all flames. The hand of Saruman almost caresses the palantir with claw-like hands as he pledges fealty to his Lord Sauron. The toady in white awaits the orders from the Eye. And Sauron commands him to build an army "worthy of Mordor." Not sure what the loquacious Eye said there at first - can an Eye clear its throat? Saruman meditates on the deed, then with the help of his new henchmen - smaller orcs with a penchant for piercings - he begins the reshaping of Isengard. What is strange is the question from the 'Orc with nose-bridge rings.' It doesn't ask, "What are your orders, m'lord?" but "What orders from Mordor, my lord? What does the Eye command?" Was the orc eavesdropping on Saruman's conversation? Were the orcs sent by Sauron to assist Saruman? I guess it could be possible that after Saruman got off of the phone that he sat around for a few weeks just thinking over the task. "Should I use a white hand logo or something with more flair? Should a platoon consist of 20 or 24 soldiers? And would a Mordor-worthy army include a brass band?" Decisions, decisions. Anyway, so as Saruman sits there thinking the orcs travel from Mordor to Nan Curunír. The orc leader is told to consult Saruman regarding new orders once they arrive. And what does the second orc statement say in regards to all present in the room? I interpret it as all are beneath the pharaonic Sauron; none of his servants or slaves is of any consideration. Smart thinking there, Saruman. You should have been asking Gandalf for help with your codependency. So the orcs start their revamping of the grounds. They don't hack the trees down, but pull them over with chains in a very coordinated operation. I won't even go into all of the fun that these little orcs would be having doing that. Ahh...yes I will. I've pulled out old tree stumps, and they're not that easy. Now, I'm no dendrologist, and really haven't a clue what type of tree that is that the orcs are working on, but it looks to have a root system more like a pine (more surface roots) than a maple (deeper roots). But this is quibbling. Peter Jackson makes sure to note that these are not real trees, and that they used one or two fake ones to shoot the whole scene. He also states that one of Tolkien's themes is that "industry destroys nature" and that Tolkien would have been appalled if real trees had been used. Like all of the energy (jet fuel, petrol, electricity), textiles (props made of plastics), hardware (computers, cameras), humans (tramplings, waste products), horses (see humans) had no effect on the environment. But at least two trees weren't added to the list. But back to the theme. Was it Aulë who said that the Children would need wood to burn? And burning trees is bad, yet burning nicotine-laced leaves is good? My point is that I don't think that Tolkien thought that all industry was all bad, but that care was needed so that it didn't devolve into orc work. All of deforestation noise awakes Gandalf, who was sleeping off his vertigo. But at least he's in time for a shower. Is that a pentagram etched into the floor of Orthanc's roof? And in regards to the tower itself, wasn't Orthanc constructed to allow wise men to gaze at stars? Pretty silly design, then, as there are four points by which one's viewing is occluded. And just how did Gandalf get up there? Is there cunning stonework involved where a trap door opens in the floor? Or do we have steps encircling the outside that just happen to be out of view? And what foresight by Saruman! As he left Aman, surely he requested that his staff be shaped to look like...say...some tower in the center of the Angrenost. "Nah, I don't have any plans to set myself as a Power..." he said to Cirdan as he stepped ashore. Middle Earth is just a magical place. Somewhat like Camelot, here the rain falls only on the protagonists. And Saruman wearing one of those plastic hair nets might look out of place - unless he were short, then it would be a great gag - and so it was lucky that the rain never hits the ground folk. As the hacking begins, Gandalf finds what comfort he can out of the wind, sitting with his back to one of the spires. Truly a moment where Gandalf appears to despair, though those of us who know him well know that he's not 'done for' or 'done in' yet. Maybe what keeps him going is thinking that Frodo has found safety in Bree, and may even have found some help unlooked for there. Surely if the Ring had fallen into enemy hands, there'd be some sign by now. Could Frodo even be on his way to Rivendell? __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it. Last edited by alatar; 09-27-2010 at 09:41 AM.

11-23-2005, 12:36 AM	#2
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,648	A very short sequence yet it helps to tie the story lines together rather well. First we learn that Saruman is a traitor, flash back to the hobbits and meet Strider, now we learn a bit more of Saruman's treason and we see the Palantir in action. One thing that impressed me is Saruman's expression after receiving the order to build an army. In the books we learn that Gandalf still had hope that Saruman might turn to good though there was never much hope. Here I think we see a bit of inner-strife with Saruman. He knows that if he begins this army there is no turning back, he will spoil the earth and create an orc army. I get the feeling that there is some nagging doubt in the back of his mind, a thought of good that he must overcome. The evil side wins and he reminds of of Emperor Palpatine in his tone and expression when he says "rip them all down" Palpatine says something like "kill them all". We now know that Saruman has been truly taken into service of Mordor and he is not coming back, he has fully been overcome by the evil influence of Sauron. Again, we see that Saruman is merely Sauron's puppet but that is consistent with the earlier portrayal of him and his character. It is good to see the the spoling of Isengard did not occur prior to Gandalf's arrival, this shows good thought on PJ's part in keeping this part of the story line consistent. Quick but a good sequence to move the story along. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

11-23-2005, 11:49 AM	#3
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	This sequence generally works, but one problem with PJ's version is seen here (time sequence). Even forgetting the bizarre uruk-hai "births", it takes some time to create and meld an army. To do it virtually instantaneously as in the movie stretches credulity and "suspension of disbelief." And wouldn't female orcsees make quite nassty amazonian warriors? Perhaps riding wargs? Not the pumped up movie wargs but the book types, which I see as more wolves on steroids then the PJ's giants. One movie bit that was quite well done was Saruman's brief pondering of his chat with the eyeball before he acted. It is just about the only (granted implied) movie Saruman doubt. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

11-23-2005, 01:11 PM	#4
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Interesting that Saruman's moment of quiet pondering is seen as "a moment of doubt," as I didn't see it that way. I saw a wizard plumbing the depths of his knowledge and craft to create the vile Uruks. In the books it's more 'crossbreeding and selection;' here I'm not sure how Saruman begets the Uruks (Plants Uruk seeds in mud?). What does he use as his source material, as I would assume that not even movie-Saruman can create, but only pervert. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

11-23-2005, 05:48 PM	#5
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Cloning? __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!