Spiders?

[Celebuial]

I have noticed that giant spiders that aren't really spiders at all, but just physical manifestations of something which descended from the Darkness outside of the Universe, seem to keep cropping up everywhere...

Well not being a very well read person I started to wonder that seeing as Tolkien has an ongoing theme with evil spiders (Ungoliant, Shelob and even the spiders of Mirkwood) and other authors such as Stephen King (in IT the spider practically is Ungoliant) & Rowling have the same idea, that unless they simply copied Tolkien there must be some kind of myth or something where evil 'spirits' from 'outside' present themselves in the form of spiders.

I guess that most of you guys have read the letters and HoME (I'm only on the 3rd volume!!!), so you can probably fill me in on where the spider thing comes from... If not I'm sure lots of you learned 'Downers are interested in Mythology and stuff...

[Morsul the Dark]

I think its more that people in general just dont like spiders i dont know why but to most people they give you a queezy feelig

rowlings spider was actually good as i recall except his/her children were little
ba---rds anyway the only myth i know of as har as spiders go well two actually..some native americans believe a giant spider wove the cosmos. and the other is greek

this lady aracna boasted of being the best weaver even better than helena(the goddess) helena freaks out goes down to challenge her aracna wins and helena is all like i hate you so she turns her into a spider and thats where spiders come from.

now remember in IT if I recall correctly the clown took the shape of whatever you feared most when it was the spider it was only because thats what the kid feared if he was scared of teletubbies it would have been a teletubby

except maybe ungolient none of the spiders were really evil; shelob was only fighting for survival as were the mirkwood spiders. and ungolient was fighting melkor(although i dont know why so im probably wrong about this next bit) if ungolient was evil wouldnt she have Aattacked yvanna or one of the other "good" guys?

I think spiders are just creepy and thats why theyre so prominent theyre like a universal fear.

[Celebuial]

Hmm.. I was under the impression that the spider was IT's most natural form... well other than the 'lights'...

I guess you're right thou about the evil part... We can't really call any of them evil as they were mostly just fighting for survival. Although to me it still seems that Ungoliant only wanted to devour eveything simply because she could, and not because she needed all of it as sustenance.

I guess spiders are a universal fear but surely that can't just be because they look and move creepily; there must be some myth that set he fear off. Maybe the Native American Indians views had something to do with this... It could stem from a fear of the unknown and maybe a fear that something had power over you or power to destroy the whole cosmos and therefore you, if it had the power to create it ...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think that we have to accept that in the world of Tolkien giant spiders are evil !

As statet before Ungoliant was greedy, she wantet to eat all just because she could. It was this that became the end of her.

Shelob is called evil in the books is she not ? She like Ungoliant want's to eat everything she can. (- Gollum as he could be of some use) If we do not accept that at least these two are evil, we will end up with a philosophical discusion of what evil is.
Or at least a confusing story, becouse then the orcs are not evil, they do not realy want to fight, neither do the mouth of Sauron. He just wants a nice place to live

[Alcarillo]

Tolkien was bit by a tarantula as a child in South Africa. A nurse sucked out the poison. Perhaps his giant spiders of later stories are in memory of the giant tarantulas of South Africa.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Alcarillo

Tolkien was bit by a tarantula as a child in South Africa. A nurse sucked out the poison. Perhaps his giant spiders of later stories are in memory of the giant tarantulas of South Africa.

Like any writer worth his salt, though, Tolkien denied any direct biographical importance. According to his biographer, Carpenter, "he [Tolkien] said the incident left him with no special dislike of spiders." (p. 27 in my edition of the biography, chapter "Bloemfontein").

Of course, some of us don't ascribe to the 'author knows everything' version of events.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

Tolkien seems to have suggested that the spider goddess created an early form of the world before Eru and he decided to represent this as evil and disgusting.

That's one of the most intriguing concepts I've come across on the Downs. So that's the explanation for Ungoliant? She was the Creatrix of the worlds, & an eternal presence in them, in one form or another. She is the Weaver & the Unweaver. Reminds me of Ariadne/Arianrhod in the Prophecies of Merlin.

Seems we are dealing with the 'Translator Conceit' again. Eru as Demiurge, Ungoliant as Weaver of the Worlds. I wonder if there was a Middle-earth equivalent of Nag Hamadi......

[Glirdan]

I believe that Tolkien, Stephen King (IT was such a stupid movie!!!) and Rowling all used it because a common phobia is arachnophoia (sp?) and not a whole lot of people like spiders. They were probably using the spiders to demonstrate the fear in those places (is. Mirkwood, the Dark Forest in Harry Potter). If that is the case, they used it well because evertime I read about the spiders in Mirkwood, I can feel the fear there is in there. Anyone else think that?

[Aiwendil]

I think that it's right that the tendency to view spiders as evil is pretty much universal in human cultures. But I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned what is most likely the root of that predisposition - research strongly suggests that we have a genetic tendency to fear spiders. The evolutionary reason is presumably the same as in the case of fear of snakes - the poisonous varieties (which are particularly common in Africa, where humans evolved) posed a great threat to our distant ancestors' survival.

[Morsul the Dark]

your surprised no one brought that up? i certainly didn't know that very interesting idea...

[Bêthberry]

There are spider legends and stories in many, many mythologies, Celebuial, so I don't think anyone can say that other authors copied Tolkien. If you do a google search for spiders in mythology, you will find many links, but here are some of the best known stories.

Anansi, the trickster god in African legend

Some Japanese spider myths

The story of Arachne in Ovid (Greek)

Some North American spider/weaving stories of creation

Not all of these mythic stories involve evil per se, but the link between weaving and creation is clear. Tolkien seems to have suggested that the spider goddess created an early form of the world before Eru and he decided to represent this as evil and disgusting. And the Downs is often overrun with 'search spiders' of course!

Have fun googling on the modern web!