I know your face.

[Boromir88]

In the FOTR movies, we get a lot of comparisons between a father-child relationship. And each one in a way is different. There's Theoden-Eowyn, Elrond-Arwen, Denethor-his sons, Bilbo-Frodo, and Gandalf-Pippin. Now I know some of these really aren't parent-child's to one another, but all of their relationships are in some ways like a parent and childs.

What's even more interesting is the "real" parent-child relationships (Denethor and his sons, Elrond and Arwen) seem to be more controlling and domineering. They want to steer the lives of their children, and they expect to be listened to. Elrond softens up in the end, but in the beginning he was strong anti-Aragorn, and strong "you're coming with me, you belong with your people!"

But the one's that aren't "really" parent-child, seem to be the strongest. I think Theoden-Eowyn relationship shows this the best. Though Theoden is Eowyn's Uncle, their relationship is like that of a parent to a child.

Theoden is unlike Denethor in the way he treats Eowyn, and it shows a close bond between them. Lines like "I am happy for you, he (Aragorn) is a good man." Theoden is willing to set aside the fact that Aragorn basically took control of the commanding of Helm's Deep, and knows, he can see, that Eowyn is in love with him. Though we all know that Eowyn goes after Aragorn for the wrong reasons (and in the end she realizes this), but Theoden does not go as far as to control Eowyn and say "No, stay away from him!" He simply realizes she's "in love" and he respects her choice.

Theoden believes that they love eachother, and he's willing to give his daughter up for that, but he does not want her bound to him, if the love's not "true"..."I would not have you mourn for who's time has come."

And it's no surprise in the end that Eowyn is willing to die for Theoden. She gives up her "focus" on Aragorn, she let's go and she becomes who she was supposed to be. A shieldmaiden, ready to die for her people if the time comes..."Courage for our friends Merry."

Where Denethor from the beginning to the very end has to be that controlling father. He has to have things his way, he even takes it as far as having control over whether Faramir dies or not.

That's basically an overview of how I think a parent-child relationship works the strongest, and in some ways they really aren't parents to childs. Compare and Contrast the several parent-child relationships we see in the LOTR movies, and your opinions (because everyone may disagree) on these relationships, and how one should be.

[malkatoj]

One of the things I've noticed along these lines is that all of these 'parent-child relationships' leave the 'child' very strong. In some cases I find this realistic, especially in the ones mentioned before.

But the one's that aren't "really" parent-child, seem to be the strongest.

In cases such as Theoden-Eowyn or Bilbo-Frodo, it makes sense that the relationship is strong. The 'parent' isn't controlling of the 'child,' which leaves the child to make his (or her) own decisions. Frodo, because of this way of upbringing, has the strength necessary to carry the Ring. Eowyn makes her own decision, even though Theoden would discourage it, to go to battle and she kills the Witch King because of that.

The thing I find strange is that in 'true' parent-child relationships, Denethor-Faramir or Elrond-Arwen, the child is still strong. This isn't to say that a parent can't make a child strong, more that the manner in which they treat the children would leave a child helpless. In reality, when a child is brought up having every decision made for him, he has a difficult time adjusting to making his own decisions. Arwen, however, makes her decision to stay with Aragorn despite her father's wishes. This is a difficult decision which is completely life changing. Faramir makes the decision to lead men in battle and has the strength necessary for that. He isn't taken down by his father's disappointment that he's still alive.

Faramir, clearly, is simply trying to prove himself. But what about Arwen? I'm curious where her strength comes from--is she just rebelling against her father, or is it because of her love?

Also, I'm curious to see what people have to say about Sam and the Gaffer.

[Bêthberry]

Hmmm. Boro88, are you suggesting that Jackson has issues with his own father, that he transcribes into his art by bringing this father/child theme into prominence in the movies? Does Jackson focus on it more than Tolkien? Is Frodo's problem that he lost his parents and never had close bonds to help him connect with other kids in The Shire? I'm not sure we see that in the movies.

What about that scene with Sam and his children, the glimpse of all the kids and Rosie and a nice rose-covered barrow?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"I'm curious to see what people have to say about Sam and the Gaffer."
===============
Exactly what I was thinking. While there's more to go on in the book,
the movie Gaffer. by implication, has raised an independent son. Sam
would never leave the Shire on his own, but can go beyond hobbit
insularity to take care of, assist, etc. Frodo. The gaffer (in the tavern)
makes his views clear to Frodo and Sam, but doesn't seek to dominate
them ala movie Elrond and Denethor.

It seems to me that movie Arwen isn't as strong as others, it's only a vision
of her son (why not her daughters?) that persuades her to defy daddy.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by malkatoj

Faramir, clearly, is simply trying to prove himself. But what about Arwen? I'm curious where her strength comes from--is she just rebelling against her father, or is it because of her love?

Not rebellion, I don't think. Remember, she love her father very much and it's a very hard choice for her to decide between immortality with him and death with Aragorn. She wants very much to be with Elrond... she just wanted Aragorn that little bit more.

Also, I'm curious to see what people have to say about Sam and the Gaffer.

That apples occasionally fall far from the tree, so to speak, and in some respects. Though Sam loves his father "This is for my own gaffer!", he doesn't listen to everything he says. You wouldn't ever find Gaffer Gamgee moseying through Mordor, now would you?

Now to address the unbiological parental relationships, I think the reason that they are so close is because they don't have to be. The "child" in the situation seems to have an equal standing with the "parent", such as Bilbo and Frodo. Bilbo was his guardian, yes, but it was a mutual decision. Bilbo didn't cloister Frodo, or keep him from doing anything. Frodo was free to come and go, and so, with that freedom, chose to stay. With Gandalf and Pip, that's tougher, because Gandalf had more say in the matter, and made sure his say was heard. But that's sort of like choosing to listen to you grouchy old grandpa because you know that beneath the gruffness, he really cares about you, and has a lot to share that's very interesting and possibly important. Pip doesn't have to listen, he just does because he respects that Gandalf is the leader. Even then... he doesn't always.

You see more with the biological relationships that they are one-sided, no matter how old the child gets. Though in the end, Arwen's decision is entirely her own (only because Elrond actually can't make it for her), Elrond tries to convince her otherwise the entire way. He's the father, he knows better, he's got more experience with these sorts of things... I can just hear the arguments now. Yes, Arwen's opinion would quite obviously counts, but you never forget at all that she is his daughter. Denathor is the most controlling dad, obviously. Quite honestly, I think he would have benefitted from having a pretty and vivacious teenage daughter around. But his outlook seems to be that of an old warrior (I wonder why that could be...). His sons, though he loves them and "remember[s] it in the end", are soldiers (well... commanders) to be used for the good of Gondor. That relationship is more of a commander/underling one, though not entirely, as you will remember that he was their father and did love them. That's the important bond there with all of the relationships... love.

B, I like your topic. Ye've gone and made me think a bit about my parents and my other "parents".

[malkatoj]

Originally posted by Feanor of the Peredhil
With Gandalf and Pip, that's tougher, because Gandalf had more say in the matter, and made sure his say was heard. But that's sort of like choosing to listen to you grouchy old grandpa because you know that beneath the gruffness, he really cares about you, and has a lot to share that's very interesting and possibly important.

I see this completely differently. The way I look at it, Pippin doesn't listen to Gandalf because he knows he cares or because he's a fatherly figure or anything of the sort. It seems to me that Pippin only listens to Gandalf because he knows it's best for Frodo. Pippin also realizes that he, alone, wouldn't know what's best for Frodo and the Ring so in order to help, he must listen to Gandalf.

As for the Arwen point: I don't think she's just rebelling, I was just thinking of it as a possibility. It just seems strange to me, and perhaps psychologically inaccurate, that a child who was so completely under her father's influence could suddenly gain the strength that it took for her to choose to stay.

Though in the end, Arwen's decision is entirely her own (only because Elrond actually can't make it for her), Elrond tries to convince her otherwise the entire way.

Which leads more into what I'm saying. Arwen chooses, despite the fact that her father tries constantly to convince her not to, to stay. I guess I'm being repetitive here--I just think that, after being repressed for so long, it would be difficult for her to make such a huge decision right away.

[Boromir88]

Faramir, clearly, is simply trying to prove himself.~malktoj

I agree. I think this goes into further explain why Faramir decided to take Frodo to Osgiliath as well.

B, I like your topic. Ye've gone and made me think a bit about my parents and my other "parents".~Fea

I'm glad you enjoy it.

I like what you said about Elrond and Arwen. I think throughout we do get to see that Arwen doesn't despise, or dislike her father, but she's just committed to Aragorn, and her love for him is what gets it through.

Is it TTT when we see him tell her she's going to the Undying Lands, and despite this, she still says "I love you dad" in Elvish. So, I just think it was a matter that Arwen's love for Aragorn brought her back, but she still loved pa.

We even get to see Elrond like this in the books to some extent. When he tells Aragorn that only a King of Gondor will be worthy enough to marry my daughter. I think the books dramatize this a bit, but in the end he accepts Aragorn as worth.

To Elrond it seems as if it's got to be somebody of worth (and even more it's got to be the King of Gondor), perhaps it was a test to Aragorn to see how much he really loved Arwen? What was he willing to do for her?

To Theoden, he's much more relaxed. His only concern is whether Eowyn's happy or not, even when times are dark, Theoden wants to be happy-happy-joy-joy. He sees what he thinks is "love" between Eowyn and Aragorn (though we know Eowyn wants things from Aragorn that he cannot give), but if Aragorn makes Eowyn happy, then Theoden says go for it. Once he realizes that it was a false sense of love, he doesn't want her to waste away her life thinking about him, and that she is still young.

So basically, Theoden wants Eowyn to be happy, no matter who she is with. With Elrond and Arwen, it seems that it has to be somebody worthy of her daughters love, and that person would truly do anything for Arwen. Which, I think is understandable, Arwen is facing a tough choice, and Elrond doesn't want her to forsake her immortality for a guy that might not love her.

Hmmm. Boro88, are you suggesting that Jackson has issues with his own father, that he transcribes into his art by bringing this father/child theme into prominence in the movies?~Bethberry

Interesting, I did not know that, I think it seems to be the case. As it seems that the real parent-child (Denethor- his sons, Elrond and Arwen) seem to be more controlling over what their children do, or even a point to show the influence parents have on the way their children become and act in the future? Where the not "natural" parent-child relationships just seem more relaxed and not so controlling. Theoden still acts like a father to Eowyn, but it's not in the way that he controls what she does or says. Same with Bilbo and Frodo I think.

The Gaffer-Sam one I will have to look into, I don't own the EE's and haven't seen the FOTR one in years.

[Holbytlass]

Originally Posted by malkatoj

Quote:
Though in the end, Arwen's decision is entirely her own (only because Elrond actually can't make it for her), Elrond tries to convince her otherwise the entire way.


Which leads more into what I'm saying. Arwen chooses, despite the fact that her father tries constantly to convince her not to, to stay. I guess I'm being repetitive here--I just think that, after being repressed for so long, it would be difficult for her to make such a huge decision right away.

I have to disagree with Malkatoj, I feel that the Elrond/Arwen situation is not as "repressive" as it seems. I think it is a matter of what has always been done, Elrond and Arwen are elves, elves either stay or leave Middle-Earth. Except for one example they marry their own kind, if at all.

I see (movie) Elrond trying to protect Arwen from future heartache in a choice that is binding forever. Even to the extent in causing her short term heartache by not being with the man she loves.

Also, I think Arwen HAS made up her mind all the while of what she wants to do, but feels duty (and love) bound to carry out her father's wishes. It is when she has a vision of one of her children (thereby understanding there will be children) that she finds her courage and resolve to do what she needs to do, not so much to defy or rebel against her father but be strong for her (future) children.
Her maternal instincts were awaken and by following her father's wishes she is not fighting for her children. What's the most dangerous place to be? Between a mother and her child(ren).

I'm going to jump to hobbits right now:

Gaffer/Sam and Bilbo/Frodo
Hobbits in general are more laid back than any other race. Not surprising as they are well protected, don't have to battle like 'men', and aren't as regal like 'elves'. Even the hobbits' positons of power are more down to earth than the kings and queens of other realms.

Frodo and Sam are also males, assuming things are the same as in the 'time period' it represents, males were afforded more freedom of choice and 'be their own man'.

Yes, Pippin listened to Gandalf because he was the leader, but I do agree with Feanor of the 'grouchy old man' that one comes to love.

I'm leaving Denethor/sons alone.

Theodon/Eowyn:
This is interesting because on one hand Theoden is more calm about Eowyn's love choice. There's nothing much to gripe about, Aragorn's the same race and rightful king to Gondor. I do believe that Theoden genuinely is concerned about Eowyn's happiness, in a mate. But he did not allow her to go to war even though that would make her happy. Because that was the thinking in that time, woman's place was to get married, taken care of by husband and have children.

I like Theoden but he is not as concerned abouyt Eowyn's overall happiness, just try to find the right suitor for his daughter as Elrond is trying to do for Arwen.