What happened at Mount Doom?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Read this, this, this, and then decide....

[Bêthberry]

How else would Tolkien be able to spend another six chapters concluding the story with the themes he wanted to highlight?

[Formendacil]

Gollum fell into the Fire because he slipped. He slipped because Eru willed it. Eru willed it because that's the way Tolkien wrote the story.

I went with A, but it's not the only applicable answer...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

According to "Letters", I don't have a copy with me right now, it
would have to be the last option. He stated, essentially, that that
was the logic of Gollum's developed character.

[The Saucepan Man]

And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell.

On the basis of the "facts" as presented to us, the only thing that we can say for certain is that Gollum slipped. There is certainly material to suggest that Eru gave him a little nudge, but the reader is by no means bound to accept that. Indeed, having no knowledge of Eru when I first read the tale, it would have been impossible for me to draw such a conclusion. Option B is therefore dependent upon the individual reader.

Option C is most certainly out of the question as it runs contrary to the stated "facts" and, as for option D, well I can imagine that an alternative scenario, which retained the essence of the story, would have been possible.

Option A it is then.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

as for option D, well I can imagine that an alternative scenario, which retained the essence of the story, would have been possible.

Option A it is then.

Just out of curiosity, could you provide us with a brief outline of what you can imagine? Or are you speaking just of logical probability?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

On the basis of the "facts" as presented to us, the only thing that we can say for certain is that Gollum slipped... Option A it is then.

I agree and have logged my vote accordingly.

[Lhunardawen]

There's certainly more to this poll than meets the Eye. (Haha. )

As Formendacil had very cleverly put it, options A, B, and D are valid, at least for me. A and B have been already explained and debated upon. In my opinion, D is not exactly nonsensical. Come to think of it, had Frodo in any way willingly thrown the Ring, that would make him a hero far more than Gandalf or Aragorn had been, or could ever be. Frodo then would have done something Isildur had not done, Saruman would have not done, and Gandalf admitted he could not have done. The concept of the Fellowship and their division (physically) would not make sense if in the end Frodo swept all victory into his hands.

But if we're talking direct cause, it would be A of course.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mormegil

And I don't believe that this makes Eru a murder in the least. His will is divine and without fault. Therefore when he gives life it's also his to take away whenever he deems it fit.

No, its not. For one, Eru is not God, but a character Tolkien created, so we can sit in judgement on Him & analyse his behaviour just as freely as we do any other character in the story. Secondly, without repeating what I've just posted on the CbC thread on Mount Doom, Eru cannot just be absolved of responsibility for His actions. If His Rules are truly Good, they will apply to everyone - including Eru Himself.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

For one, Eru is not God, but a character Tolkien created, so we can sit in judgement on Him & analyse his behaviour just as freely as we do any other character in the story.

A good point worth remembering. Unless there are any Eruists around here to offend, we can say what in Angband we like about him.

But seriously, to me when it is said that the hand of Eru was involved in the demise of Gollum and the Ring, it is the same as saying it was Fate which made it happen. And to say it was God or Fate or Eru which caused something to happen is a way of expressing that which we cannot explain.

Really, the chance that Gollum tripped up, and the idea that Eru caused it to happen are two sides of the same coin. We can either say "wow, how lucky for Middle-earth that Gollum fell over his own feet" or we can say "whoa, it was Fate" or we can say "Eru caused this to happen". Really, saying that Eru had a hand in it, is just trying to fix a solid point in the chaos of chance; we can either accept chance or attribute it to higher powers.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Interesting voting and comments so far – to be honest I thought that option B would be way out in front, and that option D would attract hardly any attention at all (although I would have bet a month’s salary that Bethberry was going to vote that way – old narratologists die hard… )

My vote, for what it’s worth, is option C, which looks as though I shall once again be in the extreme minority. I know that it may appear mad to say that Gollum jumped in to the fire on purpose, but hear me out.

In “The Black Gate is Closed,” Frodo says to Gollum:

‘You swore a promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to your own undoing. Already you are being twisted. You revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back to Smeagol you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. You will never get it back. In the last need, Smeagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Smeagol!’

Frodo shows a high degree of prescience here insofar as he correctly predicts, in a way, what will happen at Mount Doom, for in “the last need” he does indeed put on the Ring and Gollum goes “into the fire.” It’s interesting too that Frodo tells Gollum that if he puts on the Ring “such would be my command” (that Gollum jump from a precipice or into the fire – or maybe both…).

Now, I’m not arguing that when Gollum gets the Ring he remembers this conversation and concludes that Frodo’s order now automatically applies, and so he must throw himself into the fire. That would be too simple (although it is tempting to see the last shred of Gollum that may be Smeagol at work here – that bit of goodness awakened and nurtured by Frodo is so horrified by Gollum’s betrayal, and so terrified of being lost forever, that it sub- or unconsciously makes Gollum step too far…I don’t really buy this, but it’s an interesting idea at the very least).

OK, so what is my argument then… Well, I suppose that I would say that this option (Gollum jumped in on purpose) contains within it all of the other options. First, yes it was an accidental slip insofar as Gollum did not think “I must go into the fire now with the Ring.” But, his fate is also part of The Plan, so Eru was there making sure that good triumphs over evil. But He was not in command of it all – as Gandalf points out time and again, there is no puppet master in the sky; all the events and actions of the story are the result of free will – so Gollum wasn’t pushed, but it wasn’t really just an accident. That's why I quoted that conversation from earlier, since it's prettly clearly laid out there, well in advance of the story's climax, that Frodo putting on the Ring will entail Gollum's destruction. So either this is the wildest coincidence ever (and there's no such thing as coincidence in a fictional tale under the control of an author) or there's some kind of cause and effect relation between Frodo claiming the Ring and Gollum dying.

Finally, option C also includes option D insofar as by having the tale end this way (with Gollum going into the fire accidentally-on-purpose) Tolkien was able to leave the fabric of his story whole, without reducing it with gross over-simplification. As Bethberry has pointed out in the CbC thread, the journey up Mount Doom is a complex and subtle re-enactment of the soul’s journey – to have the conclusion of that quest clearly rendered as the result either of accident or design would be to remove the complexity of that moment and of the whole tale’s exploration of the relation between free will and fate, moral action and choice, guilt and culpability, forgiveness an fault.

If Gollum had clearly jumped on his own, or if an angelic minister had come to throw him in – would this moment be even a bit as interesting and powerful as it is? I daresay that in the end, the whole enchantment of the story hangs upon this moment insofar as we know that Gollum went in “on purpose” but that, in the end, what that purpose may be is hard (if not impossible) for us to really understand.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

(although I would have bet a month’s salary that Bethberry was going to vote that way – old narratologists die hard… )

You know, Fordie, I don't think I've ever voted on any of your other polls, but when I realised you probably set that choice just for me, well, I had to acknowledge your efforts some how and voting for any of the others, well, it just didn't seem to do justice to your efforts.

Originally Posted by SpM

Bêthberry asked me:

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, could you provide us with a brief outline of what you can imagine?

I did give this some thought. One alternative which (I think) would maintain the essence of the story would be to have Gollum trip while triumphantly holding the Ring and lose his grip on it. The Ring then rolls over the edge of the Crack, but Gollum doesn't follow it in. Having had his life preserved well beyond his natural life by the power of the Ring, Gollum then dies of old age with its destruction. Would that fit the bill? Eru could certainly not be labelled a "murderer" in those circumstances as Gollum would have been bound to die with the detruction of the Ring, whatever else happened. There might even be scope for Gollum to renounce his sins, thereby setting up the possibility of his redemption, in his dying words to Frodo.

Any thoughts?

Well, that certainly would satisfy various of the themes of redemption, but then again, that works against that very satisfying--narratologically--scene where Gollem almost repents but is cut off from his chance by a good man who means well but whose efforts at that moment foreclose goodwill--one of those catastrophic moments Tolkien discusses in his letters.

I suspect also that, narratologically, having Gollem simply die of old age once the Ring is destroyed would lack some of the climactic energy and shock which his fall into the Crack of Doom has. It might also fail to give an emotional satisfaction to those who like to see villians get their comeuppance. Of course, here the narratological imperative runs counter to the moral impulse.

[Rhod the Red]

He slipped, in my view. It wasn't intentional. He was dancing, the silly thing and slipped over the edge.