3 + 9, x (7+12) Divided by Eleventy-one... oh dear - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

the guy who be short · 08-17-2005, 02:31 PM

Here in the Books, we enjoy endlessly dissecting little phrases and sentences to the point of sadism. But what of those numbers...?

I'm aware that a few threads already exist on the significance of numbers in Tolkien, and will provide a few links. However, I've created a new thread for new input and also because I want to discuss a few things specifically rather than numbers as a whole.
The Power of Nine
Unoriginality
Deeper symbolism and hidden meanings in the books

Well, enjoy dragging yourself through those.

Now, the first question likely to cause dissent is: Did Tolkien consciously choose numbers in his works as some sort of symbolism?

The first part of the question can be answered with a resounding "Yes." The numbers 3 and 7, in particular, are repeated so often that there is almost no chance of it being down to chance! Observe:

3 Silmarils, 3 rings, 3 houses of the Eldar, 3 houses of the Edain, 3 sons of Finwe, 3 Unions of Elves and Men.

7 Dwarf Houses, 7 Durins, 7 Rings, 7(?) Balrogs, 7 Valar, 7 Valier, 7 Sons of Feanor, 7 Days in the Numenorean week, 7 Stars, 7 Palatíri.

Two other numbers can also be given a mention. 9, obviously, as the number of Nazgul, rings and Walkers.

12 and 144 (the former's square) as the Elves preferred form of counting, the Number of Original Elves and the combined age of Bilbo and Frodo.

Obviously there is far too much here to be disputed. For some reason, Tolkien specifically chose 3, 7 and 12 (and perhaps, though less clearly, 9) to play large parts in his mythology.

Why?

And that's where the fun begins! I have one or two ideas of my own, but I need to do a little research. I'm more than likely to dismiss the usual ideas of numerology - I just don't see Tolkien being interested in that sort of thing. I think his numbers would be likely to have more mythological or religious connotations (I think 7 in particular has some sort of Christian connotation?) than be related to numerology. Until I do get round to doing a little research on the matter, I leave it to you, my dear BarrowDowners, to discuss the issue, as I'm sure that several amongst you will have the necessary knowledge regarding mythology and religion.

Gurthang · 08-17-2005, 02:44 PM

Well, you are right about 7 having something(OK, quite a bit) to do with Christianity. God created the world in 7 days. Many of Israel's laws of festivals and such had to do with 7. Every 7th year was called Jubilee, and was somewhat like a year off; similar to the 7 days of the week where the Sabbath was a holiday. Noah was required to take 2 of all animals on the Ark except those that were clean. There were to be 7 of all clean animals on the Ark. (That's a little know fact, but it is in the Bible.

) Seven was considered to be a Holy number, the perfect number, the number of God if you will. That's also why 666 is evil. It's saying that Satan tried to come up to God's standard three times, but fell short each time.

I believe 12 is in the Bible frequently also. Like 12 Tribes of Israel and 12 Disciples. I'm not sure about 3 and 9 though. Hmm... I'll have to go look at that.

the guy who be short · 08-17-2005, 02:59 PM

I also came across a few websites declaring seven as the preferred number of god, the number of completion and perfection.

But then, contrast this to Tolkien's world.

The Seven sons of Feanor - Great, but all fell.
Seven Palantiri - Conceived well, most lost, captured by Sauron or destroyed.
Seven (arguably) Balrogs - Evil.
Seven Rings - Enslaved Dwarves.
Seven Dwarf Houses - Four of them fell, I believe. Not created by Eru.
Seven days - A Mannish adaptation of the Elvish system, and therefore not as good.
Seven Durins - Imperfect as they weren't created by Eru.

Seven Valar and Seven Valier - Pure.
Seven Stars - Pure.

The number 7 in Tolkien doesn't appear to reflect purity, virtue or general holiness other than in the case of the Valar and stars. Quite often we see Seven conceived in good - Palantiri, Feanor's sons (conceived in love), Seven Dwarves houses that then fall. Also, the Mannish adaptation of a 7 day week could be seen as less perfect than the Elvish 6 day week.

the phantom · 08-17-2005, 04:09 PM

I'm going to explain Tolkien's use of three and seven in a completely non-Tolkien, non-symbolic, non-anything way...

If you want something to be rare, three is a good number to pick. Having only one or two of something is too rare, but four is starting to be quite a few. Three is just right.

And seven- well, if you want only a few of something but not too few, and if you want several but not too many, a number between six and nine would work the best (because once you get to ten you are in double digits, which is too many, where as five is still too close to three). So which number do you pick- six, seven, eight, or nine? Well, knock the first and last off to get closer to the middle and you are left with seven and eight. Now, which of those numbers is a sexier, more appealing number?

I think we'd all agree that seven is the way to go.

davem · 08-18-2005, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the phantom

I think we'd all agree that seven is the way to go.

Well, seven does seem to have a significance for the Numenoreans - Minas Tirith has seven circles, & in Tolkien's illustration of it Orthanc also has seven tiers.

Bêthberry · 08-18-2005, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I also came across a few websites declaring seven as the preferred number of god, the number of completion and perfection.

I don't suppose these websites explained just how 'god' made clear his preference, did they?

AbercrombieOfRohan · 08-18-2005, 10:19 AM

Don't forget the number 33, which is the hobbits coming of age, but was also the age of Jesus was when he was crucified.

I don't think 33 is used anywhere else, but correct me if I'm wrong...

the guy who be short · 08-18-2005, 02:35 PM

Beth - All I know (and, regarding religion, that's not a lot) is that Seven appears a lot in the Bible. There are 7 churches, 7 Spirits, 7 stars, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials, 7 personages, 7 dooms, and 7 new things - apparently in the Book of Revelation alone. To give numbers, its used more than 700 times in the Bible and 54 times in the Book of Revelation. It's also used more than any other number in the Bible other than One. 7 Days of Creation, 7th Day of Sabbath, 7 Weeks between Passover and Pentecost, 7 Day Feasts, Every 7th year the farms left fallow, Every 49th year a year of Jubilee...

I'm no expert, but one would presume all these references to 7 are connected and have some significance.

Apparently, Seven is a sign of completeness as it merges "the perfect world number, 4 and the perfect divine number, 3." Four represents "the four square Earth" [the four compass points?

), and Three the Trinity, so that Seven represents the union of Earth and Heaven, and thus completeness.

Disclaimer: I don't believe the above!

Though I guess it makes as much sense as anything else, and I do think that all those Biblical 7s must have some meaning behind them. 7 could simply signify completion because God seems to favour it so much.

In any case, accepting the Biblical 7 to be a number of completeness... why did Tolkien seem to pervert this? As I've mentioned above, the 7s in Tolkien seem to fall or be partially corrupted.

In the Case of the Valar, the Valier and the Stars, 7 probably does reflect completeness and divine favour though. As davem said, the Numenoreans picked up on this too - 7 circles, 7 day week, harmony with God.

Consciously Christian in the revision, eh?

mark12_30 · 08-18-2005, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I don't suppose these websites explained just how 'god' made clear his preference, did they?

Some people have lots of fun counting how many times seven is used in various works considered sacred.

Regarding the Christian bible, seven does show up quite a bit. (I haven't counted.) Revelation in particular is 7-heavy.

In the Old Testament twelve is a very popular number, but Tolkien didn't seem too taken up with that one.

Generally speaking, I think Tolkien was more worried about the spirituality of his characters than the spirituality of the numbers he used. Since so many of his themes/ motifs are myth-based I would expect some of his number games to be myth based as well.

I just think it's fun arranging seven stars around one white tree.

the phantom · 08-18-2005, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Some people have lots of fun counting how many times seven is used in various works considered sacred.

I think about everyone uses seven. Every book I have has a page seven.

But seriously, I'm not joking here- seven is a cool number. Say it. It has an edge to it... seven... sssseven....

It looks pretty cool, too. It's only a horizontal line and a slanted line so it seems weird that it could look cool, but wouldn't you agree that seven is a cool looking number? Just look at it-> 7

When I said it was a sexy number, I meant it. "Seven" even starts the same as "sexy".

There are many gambling games that involve rolling the number seven with dice. There are also games that use seven as a wild card. If you pull the lever on a slot machine and get sevens across it is a very good thing. I know a lot of people who consider seven their lucky number.

Seventeen magazine is one of the most popular magazines in the country. Why isn't Sixteen or Eighteen so popular?

But don't completely disregard my entire post as nonsense. I really think there's something to it. Sure, Prof T might have gone with seven for a concrete reason (to mirror something Biblical or something in a Norse myth), but I also think that he might've picked seven anyway without religious influence just because seven is a great number.

I know I would've picked it.

*everyone stares at phantom not quite knowing what to think*

Joy · 08-17-2005, 02:59 PM

Well, I can tell you what these #'s mean in terms of Biblical Numerics.

3 - Divine Perfection
7 - Resurrection, Spiritual perfection, completness
9 - judgement
12 - Governmental perfection, law
144 - Life guided by the Spirit

Take from that what you will.

the guy who be short · 08-27-2005, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

There were eight palantiri, not seven.

Perhaps we're witnessing some Discworld infiltration?

08-17-2005, 02:31 PM	#1
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	3 + 9, x (7+12) Divided by Eleventy-one... oh dear Here in the Books, we enjoy endlessly dissecting little phrases and sentences to the point of sadism. But what of those numbers...? I'm aware that a few threads already exist on the significance of numbers in Tolkien, and will provide a few links. However, I've created a new thread for new input and also because I want to discuss a few things specifically rather than numbers as a whole. The Power of Nine Unoriginality Deeper symbolism and hidden meanings in the books Well, enjoy dragging yourself through those. Now, the first question likely to cause dissent is: Did Tolkien consciously choose numbers in his works as some sort of symbolism? The first part of the question can be answered with a resounding "Yes." The numbers 3 and 7, in particular, are repeated so often that there is almost no chance of it being down to chance! Observe: 3 Silmarils, 3 rings, 3 houses of the Eldar, 3 houses of the Edain, 3 sons of Finwe, 3 Unions of Elves and Men. 7 Dwarf Houses, 7 Durins, 7 Rings, 7(?) Balrogs, 7 Valar, 7 Valier, 7 Sons of Feanor, 7 Days in the Numenorean week, 7 Stars, 7 Palatíri. Two other numbers can also be given a mention. 9, obviously, as the number of Nazgul, rings and Walkers. 12 and 144 (the former's square) as the Elves preferred form of counting, the Number of Original Elves and the combined age of Bilbo and Frodo. Obviously there is far too much here to be disputed. For some reason, Tolkien specifically chose 3, 7 and 12 (and perhaps, though less clearly, 9) to play large parts in his mythology. Why? And that's where the fun begins! I have one or two ideas of my own, but I need to do a little research. I'm more than likely to dismiss the usual ideas of numerology - I just don't see Tolkien being interested in that sort of thing. I think his numbers would be likely to have more mythological or religious connotations (I think 7 in particular has some sort of Christian connotation?) than be related to numerology. Until I do get round to doing a little research on the matter, I leave it to you, my dear BarrowDowners, to discuss the issue, as I'm sure that several amongst you will have the necessary knowledge regarding mythology and religion. Last edited by the guy who be short; 08-21-2005 at 08:32 AM. Reason: typos

08-17-2005, 02:44 PM	#2
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	Well, you are right about 7 having something(OK, quite a bit) to do with Christianity. God created the world in 7 days. Many of Israel's laws of festivals and such had to do with 7. Every 7th year was called Jubilee, and was somewhat like a year off; similar to the 7 days of the week where the Sabbath was a holiday. Noah was required to take 2 of all animals on the Ark except those that were clean. There were to be 7 of all clean animals on the Ark. (That's a little know fact, but it is in the Bible. ) Seven was considered to be a Holy number, the perfect number, the number of God if you will. That's also why 666 is evil. It's saying that Satan tried to come up to God's standard three times, but fell short each time. I believe 12 is in the Bible frequently also. Like 12 Tribes of Israel and 12 Disciples. I'm not sure about 3 and 9 though. Hmm... I'll have to go look at that. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

08-17-2005, 04:09 PM	#4
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	three and seven explained... I'm going to explain Tolkien's use of three and seven in a completely non-Tolkien, non-symbolic, non-anything way... If you want something to be rare, three is a good number to pick. Having only one or two of something is too rare, but four is starting to be quite a few. Three is just right. And seven- well, if you want only a few of something but not too few, and if you want several but not too many, a number between six and nine would work the best (because once you get to ten you are in double digits, which is too many, where as five is still too close to three). So which number do you pick- six, seven, eight, or nine? Well, knock the first and last off to get closer to the middle and you are left with seven and eight. Now, which of those numbers is a sexier, more appealing number? I think we'd all agree that seven is the way to go. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important. Last edited by the phantom; 08-17-2005 at 04:29 PM.

08-18-2005, 02:35 PM	#8
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	Beth - All I know (and, regarding religion, that's not a lot) is that Seven appears a lot in the Bible. There are 7 churches, 7 Spirits, 7 stars, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials, 7 personages, 7 dooms, and 7 new things - apparently in the Book of Revelation alone. To give numbers, its used more than 700 times in the Bible and 54 times in the Book of Revelation. It's also used more than any other number in the Bible other than One. 7 Days of Creation, 7th Day of Sabbath, 7 Weeks between Passover and Pentecost, 7 Day Feasts, Every 7th year the farms left fallow, Every 49th year a year of Jubilee... I'm no expert, but one would presume all these references to 7 are connected and have some significance. Apparently, Seven is a sign of completeness as it merges "the perfect world number, 4 and the perfect divine number, 3." Four represents "the four square Earth" [the four compass points? ), and Three the Trinity, so that Seven represents the union of Earth and Heaven, and thus completeness. Disclaimer: I don't believe the above! Though I guess it makes as much sense as anything else, and I do think that all those Biblical 7s must have some meaning behind them. 7 could simply signify completion because God seems to favour it so much. In any case, accepting the Biblical 7 to be a number of completeness... why did Tolkien seem to pervert this? As I've mentioned above, the 7s in Tolkien seem to fall or be partially corrupted. In the Case of the Valar, the Valier and the Stars, 7 probably does reflect completeness and divine favour though. As davem said, the Numenoreans picked up on this too - 7 circles, 7 day week, harmony with God. Consciously Christian in the revision, eh? Last edited by the guy who be short; 08-18-2005 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Name bolding

08-17-2005, 02:59 PM	#11
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Well, I can tell you what these #'s mean in terms of Biblical Numerics. 3 - Divine Perfection 7 - Resurrection, Spiritual perfection, completness 9 - judgement 12 - Governmental perfection, law 144 - Life guided by the Spirit Take from that what you will. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

08-18-2005, 10:19 AM	#7
AbercrombieOfRohan Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 311	Don't forget the number 33, which is the hobbits coming of age, but was also the age of Jesus was when he was crucified. I don't think 33 is used anywhere else, but correct me if I'm wrong...