The Grace of Ilúvatar? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thinlómien · 08-08-2005, 04:55 AM

Reading the thread "And Eru smiled" I came across another theological ME-related question. What happens after death/ at the end to those of the children of Ilúvatar who have somehow "worked against him"? I mean are they punished in some way? Or do they get grace as in Christianity? Or does such a thing as work against Ilúvatar even exist, if everything is due to fate and everything is set before it happens? And what about Melkor? Will he be punished or wil he have grace? Any ideas?

Frodo Baggins · 08-08-2005, 11:50 AM

Thinlomien, you read my mind. I was wondering the same thing this morning and was about to begin a thread such as this. It seems all Elves go to Mandos, at least until they are reborn. But Elves do not concern me at present. And dwarves really aren't technically "Children of Eru" but more children of Aule.

Men are what I had in mind. It is said that men go to be whith Eru when they die but I wondered is that for ALL men? In Christianity do be given Grace you must repent of your sins and accept Jesus as Lord and King. In a Christian sense (which is doubtless what Tolkien had in mind) the only people who go to heaven or to "Be with Eru" if you will, are those who are obedient to God. Eru laid down laws I know for the Elves but I wonder if they apply to men as well. There are some men of Middle-earth that are good and follow the law of Eru and there are those that are "bad", evil men that work against the side of good. (There's some evil Elves too, to be sure but they don't concern me at present.) So, do all men go to Eru when they die or just the good men?

There's something somewhere about Melkor being finally punished forever but I forget where and it's not in anything in my library, so others will have to help with this.

burrahobbit · 08-09-2005, 12:40 AM

Melkor gets his head cut off. You only get grace if you deserve it.

Ar-Pharazon · 08-09-2005, 12:41 AM

I cant remember exactly but doesnt Melkor/Morgoth get sent to an oblivion, a state of existence devoid of any sensation for the rest of existence.

As for the fate of good and evil men, it maybe like in many religons that each soul is judged after death of being worthy of acceptance into a heaven-like state of being. Im guessing any of the fallen are sent on to the same fate as Melkor.

~Ar

HerenIstarion · 08-09-2005, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Melkor gets his head cut off. You only get grace if you deserve it

Um, more or less so. Not exactly 'deserve it', 'undeserving' may get it if they wish for it, or even retain ability to wish for it, rather. Melkor ceased to wish anything but his own self and lordship.

burrahobbit · 08-09-2005, 04:33 AM

Respectfully disagree. Where does it say that?

HerenIstarion · 08-09-2005, 04:37 AM

1. Sauron by the end of the first age
2. Gollum on the stairs, prior to Sam abusing him

Undeserving, but almost there

1. Noldor and Men, and Earendil's prayer before the Valar
2. 9 ships of the Faithful

Underserving, and there

08-08-2005, 04:55 AM	#1
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	The Grace of Ilúvatar? Reading the thread "And Eru smiled" I came across another theological ME-related question. What happens after death/ at the end to those of the children of Ilúvatar who have somehow "worked against him"? I mean are they punished in some way? Or do they get grace as in Christianity? Or does such a thing as work against Ilúvatar even exist, if everything is due to fate and everything is set before it happens? And what about Melkor? Will he be punished or wil he have grace? Any ideas? __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

08-08-2005, 11:50 AM	#2
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Thinlomien, you read my mind. I was wondering the same thing this morning and was about to begin a thread such as this. It seems all Elves go to Mandos, at least until they are reborn. But Elves do not concern me at present. And dwarves really aren't technically "Children of Eru" but more children of Aule. Men are what I had in mind. It is said that men go to be whith Eru when they die but I wondered is that for ALL men? In Christianity do be given Grace you must repent of your sins and accept Jesus as Lord and King. In a Christian sense (which is doubtless what Tolkien had in mind) the only people who go to heaven or to "Be with Eru" if you will, are those who are obedient to God. Eru laid down laws I know for the Elves but I wonder if they apply to men as well. There are some men of Middle-earth that are good and follow the law of Eru and there are those that are "bad", evil men that work against the side of good. (There's some evil Elves too, to be sure but they don't concern me at present.) So, do all men go to Eru when they die or just the good men? There's something somewhere about Melkor being finally punished forever but I forget where and it's not in anything in my library, so others will have to help with this. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

08-09-2005, 12:40 AM	#3
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Melkor gets his head cut off. You only get grace if you deserve it. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

08-09-2005, 12:41 AM	#4
Ar-Pharazon Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 15	I cant remember exactly but doesnt Melkor/Morgoth get sent to an oblivion, a state of existence devoid of any sensation for the rest of existence. As for the fate of good and evil men, it maybe like in many religons that each soul is judged after death of being worthy of acceptance into a heaven-like state of being. Im guessing any of the fallen are sent on to the same fate as Melkor. ~Ar __________________ Do I seem fair but feel foul or do I seem foul but feel fair? Ah the questions of life.

08-09-2005, 04:33 AM	#6
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Respectfully disagree. Where does it say that? __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

08-09-2005, 04:37 AM	#7
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	laconicity is like a ping-pong - you say ping, I say pong... 1. Sauron by the end of the first age 2. Gollum on the stairs, prior to Sam abusing him Undeserving, but almost there 1. Noldor and Men, and Earendil's prayer before the Valar 2. 9 ships of the Faithful Underserving, and there __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!