Saruman for or against Sauron?

The Two Towers deals with the link between Isengard and Mordor in the battle against ME. However, one thing that I have had trouble deciding was, did Saruman JOIN with Sauron (as with the film), or was there just a casual link between the two (i.e passing of information) from which the treacherous Sauron benefited totally through commanding the will of others from the seeing stones?

I had the idea that Sauron was just using Saruman as a puppet to turn against ME, hence increase his own chances of defeating ME, while never having any plans of formally joining with Saruman. There is no clear evidence that Saruman built his army to directly aid Mordor as far as I have known.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

They were against each other insofar as they both wanted the Ring of Power and both wanted to defeat the other, but they were cooperative because they both felt the threat of the 'good guys', particularly Gondor. They didn't like each other but they hated Gondor more.

I think it's sad how the film shows Saruman as being, like you say, a puppet and little more.

[Kath]

I think it's sad how the film shows Saruman as being, like you say, a puppet and little more.

I agree. He was actually very cunning and powerful in his own right. He used Wormtongue to infiltrate Rohan and was doing a fine job of corrupting them until Gandalf showed up. And the power of his voice is never really shown in the film either which is shame as I always thought this a very interesting power in the books.

Saruman wasn't really working for Sauron though I don't think. I would say that they were working in tandem toward a common goal. Both wanted the Ring and power over ME and had Saruman got the Ring he would have had a fair shot at this as the Ring would have magnified his powers.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Saruman betrayed the Council to enter the service of Mordor; he then betrayed Mordor to work to get the Ring for himself. Sauron was aware of this from a very early time, I think. However, Saruman was for the present in his service, at least in public, and so he used Saruman as much as he could. Ultimately Saruman would never have been any match for Sauron, unless he got hold of the Ring, as Gandalf makes clear in Book Three.

[The Only Real Estel]

I think that Saruman did 'join' with Sauron, but had his own plans all along. Like Mansun said, I don't think there is any evidence at all that Saruman bred his army solely to help Sauron, he was breeding them in his own little attmept to copy Sauron's army. If he could get Sauron to fall for his lip-service pitch he could still destroy Rohan (which would help him quite a bit) and hopefully recover the Ring before Sauron did, with a decent sized army to protect him. That said I doubt Sauron fell for it for long.

I think it's sad how the film shows Saruman as being, like you say, a puppet and little more.

I'll third that. Saruman had his own powers and plans and was a good deal more than a stupid finger puppet, being bent to his new master's will.

[davem]

I think there's also Saruman's envy of Sauron to take into account. Its clear that Saruman saw Sauron as some kind of 'ideal' role-model:

A strong place and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been beautiful; and there great lords had dwelt, the wardens of Gondor upon the West, and wise men that watched the stars. But Saruman had slowly shaped it to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived--for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dur, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength.(The Road to Isengard)

It seems that he wasn't so much competing with Sauron as wanting to become him. Whether Sauron was responsible for putting this desire into his mind, or whether it merely reflected some deep-rooted desire in his own psyche, I don't think we'll ever know for certain.

I think Sauron gave away the idea that he did have a decent understanding (so he thought!) with Saruman. If you remember, Pippin had an encounter with Sauron through the seeing stone, in which Sauron thought he was for a moment communicating with Saruman, asking " Why have you neglected to report for so long?". This implies that Saruman actually betrayed Sauron, but it is highly likely that should Sauron retain the Ring he would brush aside even a loyal Saruman to some low key mischief job, assuming that the Mouth of Sauron was to become the lieutenant of Isengard.

The fact that the Mouth of Sauron also made out that the Darklord no longer trusted Saruman to be worthy of that role when all was to be won at the black gate suggests that he did most likely work well with Saruman initially, but then was betrayed by him. Sauron must have thought Saruman was incapable of getting the Ring in the first place, and even if he got it, Sauron would know exactly where it was, and would bend his power towards Isengard like a storm (or quicker).