Tolkien-founder of new religion?

[daeron]

I was browsing through some old threads when I came upon the one discussing the new found "hobbit" species in South Asia. ( I really hope some underwater archeological expedition digs up Glorfindel's grave. That would be an eye opener!) Well, that set me thinking.

Some of my friends, well educated class, seem to believe in epics (Indian especially, I am one) being reality and seem to believe that giants existed at one time, and that too commonly among our species (one gave me a reference of a character being 12 feet tall ). He says that is how the pyramids were built. I have to tell you that Indian epics are very closely associated with the Hindu religion. (Can someone give me proper proofs of existance of giants?)

I, personally am an atheist and possibly one of the biggest critics. My belief is that these epics, if they did describe events of that age of the world were glorified hugely as they were passed down to us. They were after all transferred mouth to mouth for long time and could easily have been modified. I heard that was the case even with the Bible. (And I am not talking of Da Vinci code.)

Sorry for that into if it hurt someone's feelings. But here is what I meant to say. Can Tolkien's ideas be started into a new religion? You might say it basically follows Christianity but the basic plot outline is same for quite a lot of religions.
Imagine if some day people look back to our time, to Tolkien as the "prophet" and discover proofs of religious cults named barrowdowns and so on. If we can find sufficient number of followers to start with, I believe it is possible. I don't mean it to happen. I have enough with religions. But is that not how they started? Powerful ones showing proofs of stuff , like the "hobbit people" and sway others. I guess Tolkien's world has enough stuff on Gods, Demons and Others. Well, if you believe in one, why not in the other?

[davem]

Tolkien's works have been 'adopted' by a number of 'Pagan' writers (see here

There are a couple of tarot decks based on LotR, & I know of at least one book, The Magical World of JRR Tolkien, by Gareth Knight, which delves into the symbolism of the Legendarium & includes a 'magical' Ritual.

I realise that none of this answers your question, but I think maybe it shows that the tendency to approach Tolkien's writings from a 'religious/spiritual' viewpoint has already begun.

[Arwen Imladris]

There is alot of religion in Tolkien's works. I mean, he has gods and demi-gods and stuff. I could definatly see some extremist sorts taking that stuff seriously, although I doubt that any religion based on Tolkien will become more than a cult. People are very critical nowadays, and I don't think many would follow a religion based on a purely fictional story.

They were after all transferred mouth to mouth for long time and could easily have been modified. I heard that was the case even with the Bible.

Hmm, I read that the Bible is actually one of the most accurate books from ancient times. When they wrote it down, the writters would have to check every word, every letter. People would copy it down and then someone else would check it. If there was a different number of letters they would have to re-write it all over again. They would also only copy from the original copy, never from copies.

Also, just looking at the earliest copy we have now in comparison to when it was written, there is only a few hundred years for most of the new testament books. There is a much bigger space between other ancient writtings, think plato, stuff like that. Funnily, I've never heard anyone complain about the accuracy of those documents.

[Lalwendë]

There are some differences between LotR and the Bible (surprisingly, ). Tolkien's work was published, was put into print, and though there have been some small differences with edited, 'new' versions, his work has pretty much been set in stone from the beginning. The Bible has had a different evolution, being translated from many other languages into the form it takes today, so much that was originally there may have been 'lost in translation'. We also have to take into account that even though scribes aimed to be faithful in what they copied, they often worked under a system of patronage and may have been required to excise unpalatable elements, according to their sponsors.

Three of the four gospels apparently are drawn from one source, which I was taught was known as 'Q', John is the exception. But Matthew, Mark and Luke were all written for different audiences. Imagine if LotR had evolved in this way. Though it does beg the question of whether, in future years, the author could be lost, and differing versions (the 10th film version, the 15th cartoon version, the sit-com, the soap, whatever the imagination may conjour up...) may dilute the original.

This is a world which in many cases is more secular, and we see people seriously calling themsleves Jedi Knights or Vampires or reincarnations of Cleopatra, so the idea of Tolkien's work forming the basis of a faith is not entirely off the wall.

[daeron]

Well Arwen, I didn't mean the Bible was modified along the centuries.
I meant, it was written to suit prefrences (in the 3rd century of so, by the church), but here is not the place to discuss it.

What I wanted was whether illiterate and ignorant can be swayed by a "Tolkienian Bible" which is quite complete with Genisis and all?

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by daeron

What I wanted was whether illiterate and ignorant can be swayed by a "Tolkienian Bible" which is quite complete with Genisis and all?

I doubt it. The real Bible is (allegedly, anyway) written by holy men and priests and Moses and the such. Plus it has a few thousand years of history behind it.

Tolkien, on the other hand, was quite definitely a man who lived in the 20th Century. He doesn't claim to have been influenced by a Holy Spirit either. When the author himself maintains that his work is one of fiction, I cannot see anybody hijacking it and using it as an actual account of the past.

You speak also of the illiterate and the ignorant. Neither of these groups would be reading Tolkien, and to have it read to them, they would need to seek the literate, who would be able to explain the fictional nature of the books.

Oh, and welcome to the Downs. It's most pleasing to see a man from the motherland here.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by daeron

Well Arwen, I didn't mean the Bible was modified along the centuries.
I meant, it was written to suit prefrences (in the 3rd century of so, by the church), but here is not the place to discuss it.

Compiled. Not written.

[Neurion]

A new religion? Egad! I hope not!

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The Bible has had a different evolution, being translated from many other languages into the form it takes today, so much that was originally there may have been 'lost in translation'. We also have to take into account that even though scribes aimed to be faithful in what they copied, they often worked under a system of patronage and may have been required to excise unpalatable elements, according to their sponsors.

Three of the four gospels apparently are drawn from one source, which I was taught was known as 'Q', John is the exception. But Matthew, Mark and Luke were all written for different audiences..

That's why we have a little something called Infallibility

[Turgon Philip Noldor]

I have a question, it has come to my attention that this 'Religion' does not have a main theme. What would be the point? Most other religions have a main point or theme to fallow. I suppose that that is what we are discussing, right? I suppose that you people are discussing what the religions guidelines and purposes would be. Christianity has a point, it makes since. But how would the 'Tolkien-ism' or 'Eruism' work? Would people worship Eru or the creator of the fictional LOTR world, Tolkien? Would the 'Religion's' goal be to make our world a better place, or to give people security and assurance? Would people go to a kind of ' LOTR Church' and read from the LOTR books as Christians do with the Scripture? Would this 'Religion' just be to fill the void in peoples lives? And by the way, as a Christian, I know for a fact that if J. R. R. Tolkien was indeed a Christian (as I've heard), he would have hated the idea or fact of people making a 'Religion' out of his books!

daeron- Why do you want to create this 'Religion'? What thing or fact about Christianity disappointed you? If you want to email me personally, we can discuss this subject through personal email. Inless you want to discuss it in public, which I don't mind.

-Turgon-

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Turgon Philip Noldor

I have a question, it has come to my attention that this 'Religion' does not have a main theme. What would be the point? Most other religions have a main point or theme to fallow. I suppose that that is what we are discussing, right? I suppose that you people are discussing what the religions guidelines and purposes would be. Christianity has a point, it makes since. But how would the 'Tolkien-ism' or 'Eruism' work? Would people worship Eru or the creator of the fictional LOTR world, Tolkien? Would the 'Religion's' goal be to make our world a better place, or to give people security and assurance? Would people go to a kind of ' LOTR Church' and read from the LOTR books as Christians do with the Scripture? Would this 'Religion' just be to fill the void in peoples lives?

Could it be something simple, such as to acknowledge the One (Eru, in this case) at certain times or on specific occasions? These might be dependent on culture (Rohirrim, Gondorians, etc) and people (hobbits, men). For example, one might say a prayer before partaking in the evening meal, or a special prayer may be offered at a wedding. More examples were discussed in this thread.

Other than that, one might simply try to live a life as the heroes/heroines/prototypes of old exemplified. Note that it would seem that people in ME somehow have an innate understanding of good and evil, and choose one path or the other.

[VanimaEdhel]

Originally Posted by Turgon Philip Noldor

I have a question, it has come to my attention that this 'Religion' does not have a main theme. What would be the point? Most other religions have a main point or theme to fallow. I suppose that that is what we are discussing, right? I suppose that you people are discussing what the religions guidelines and purposes would be. Christianity has a point, it makes since.

The main "point" of most religions in their most basic form was twofold:
1. to provide a set of laws and guidelines by which to live your life - to give structure to a chaotic civilization; if you were motivated by a supernatural force, you would be more likely to abide by these guidelines - since most deities are said to know when you lie, and to be aware of your every move and thought. You would be more likely to temper yourself, and therefore it allows the race to live in relative peace within itself.
2. to explain "miraculous" seeming natural occurences - the world provides many splendid things, some explained by science, some not; Religion is the Science of many people: it explains why things occur.

The Silmarillion, while not as specific as the Bible, does contain such things - through the parables found within the text, they give hints that the benevolent will ultimately triumph, that love of another (be he or she of any race) is a most divine thing; and it also explains things such as why the stars are in the sky, who controls the earth, etc.

Originally Posted by Turgon Philip Noldor

But how would the 'Tolkien-ism' or 'Eruism' work? Would people worship Eru or the creator of the fictional LOTR world, Tolkien?

Well, recalling back to my explanation of Scientology, people who would follow a religion based on the texts of Tolkien would consider that Tolkien was a prophet - a man who had visions of what really was. Unbeknownst to even himself, he translated this "true" world into text. They could use evidence in the fact that he said that he felt the story was coming "through" him, rather than that he "creating" a new place. In fact, how is this different from Jesus, other than the fact that Jesus supposedly knew of this religion as L. Ron Hubbard knows of Scientology? People often talk of Christian prophets not thinking of themselves as such - as channeling the divine without realizing it, in order to make other people aware of their faith.

Let it be noted that I am in no way about to follow a Tolkien-based religion: I just entirely understand the legitimacy it would have in the world with other religions.

Originally Posted by Turgon Philip Noldor

Would the 'Religion's' goal be to make our world a better place, or to give people security and assurance? Would people go to a kind of ' LOTR Church' and read from the LOTR books as Christians do with the Scripture? Would this 'Religion' just be to fill the void in peoples lives? And by the way, as a Christian, I know for a fact that if J. R. R. Tolkien was indeed a Christian (as I've heard), he would have hated the idea or fact of people making a 'Religion' out of his books!

I think every religion does all three of those things: creates a sense of peace within oneself, fills a thirst both for knowledge and for the concept that we are not "alone" in this universe, and tries to secure a safer world for the future generations. The religion based on Tolkien's books could provide all three, as I have written below. And I answered both of those Christians, though rather facetiously, below. The Silmarillion would provide the major text, and the other books would be side stories - especially used for teaching morals. And, as I said, I don't think a Tolkien-based religion would need a strict set of guidelines as to where and when to worship: there may be a place you can go if silent worship and contemplation is your cup of tea, but I see the idea of this being more a peaceful cohabitation of believers, all secure in their own faith so as to not really need a Church, priests and the like.

And, even though you are a Christian and I am not, I think you are in no more position to say how Tolkien would react to people founding a religion than I am. There is not just one Christianity - and even within Catholicism, people believe different things. Why would Tolkien create such a rich history - delving into lineages, histories and even tongues - if he did not want people at least to lose themselves in his created mythology? He even admittedly was quoted saying that he himself often lost himself in his own world - his own creation. It became almost like an addiction, I would say, that he had to build on this world. It is very, very understandable in my view - and as a person whose main hobby in her off time is to write, I envy him for finding a world that did that for him.

And as I said, I don't think Tolkien would have necessarily wanted me to hang a ring around my neck and mutter "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" every time the mood strikes me. But I don't necessarily think he would scorn those who did so.

Originally Posted by Turgon Philip Noldor

daeron- Why do you want to create this 'Religion'? What thing or fact about Christianity disappointed you? If you want to email me personally, we can discuss this subject through personal email. Inless you want to discuss it in public, which I don't mind.

Christianity just isn't the right religion for some people. People must believe what is right for them - for their peace of mind. I know I am not daeron, and I will make no efforts to answer for him - just don't take it as a personal offense if people find your religion to be wrong for them.

[daeron]

Turgon, I don't know if you've read my first post where I mentioned I am an atheist. I don't have anything against Christianity more than I do against my parents' religion. My arguments take it as example because most people here seem to be Christians and it is more popular. And I don't want to start it.

I believe Silmarillion would act the part of the Old Testament ( And on that day God spoke to Tuor and so on...) but others don't resemble the Gospels. Gospels are preachings which have not been emphasised in Tolkien's works. He himself says his works are not meant to preach. But those can be added later on by a "Tolkienian Church".

Tolkien's works are always compared only to Christianity, but I find it close even to many other religions around the world (may not be intentional on Tolkien's part). Chinese idea of "Dragon eating the Sun" (which also exists in Hinduism, though in a different form) is mentioned in Silmarillion, and many of Tolkien's tales resemble many stories from Hinduism (only one I know in detail) in style, they contain creatures of the same types, immortal, Godly, Tree creatures, Skin changers... and most importantly as with most religious stories, a clear distinction in good and evil parties.

What it lacks is a set of precise guidelines, A Bhagavat Gita of the Hindus, Gospels of Christians, Quran of Muslims and others. That can be taken care of (once Tolkien Estate lays down rights) , and indeed I believe if a Tolkien Religion had cropped up 3000 years ago, they would certainly have been written.

Can someone tell me whether Islam originated with prophet Mohammed or did it exist before? I am interested deeply in Mythology and can you give me references to Islamic stories, if any exist. If it did start with one person, can Eruism not do so?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Daeron

Can someone tell me whether Islam originated with prophet Mohammed of did it exist before? I am interested deeply in Mythology and can you give me references to Islamic stories, if any exist. If it did start with one person, can Eruism not do so?

Mohammed recieved the Quran from Allah through the Angel Gabriel, so he founded Islam. Hence Islam is a 'revealed' religion, like Christianity & Judaism. The difference between them & a Tolkienien religion is that those faiths make a clear claim that their teachings come from God, & thus must be True. If Moses, Jesus & Mohammed had just said 'This is what I believe God revealed to me, what do you think?' there would probably have been a lot less blood shed by their followers over the centuries.

[VanimaEdhel]

This has a lot of information on Islam - including links to other sites, in case you're interested daeron. Religious Tolerance.org is a great site about all different religions in general, actually - it has information on the actual site along with links to other sites with even more information. It also recommends books to read on the subject, etc.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by VanimaEdhel

Why would Tolkien create such a rich history - delving into lineages, histories and even tongues - if he did not want people at least to lose themselves in his created mythology? He even admittedly was quoted saying that he himself often lost himself in his own world - his own creation. It became almost like an addiction, I would say, that he had to build on this world. It is very, very understandable in my view - and as a person whose main hobby in her off time is to write, I envy him for finding a world that did that for him.

Let's put ourselves in Tolkien's shoes...if we have written a whole mythology complete with languages and all that is inevitably inspired by our religion, and we find out that some who read our books use them to create a religion of their own, how would we feel?

I would have been disappointed, if not entirely annoyed. My works are indirectly but a 'product' of my faith, yet people are placing them on a pedestal that is not rightly theirs. They worship that which is created by one who is merely created herself. Which is weird, to say the least.

[Thinlómien]

Hah.. Hope this doesn't hurt anyone's feelings but you shold see my LotR fan+teen-angst-anti-christian friends in a church. They modify every prayer and every religious song into some kind of Ilúvatar-religions -thing. And in a christian confirmation camp my friend intended to say to the priest that she can't pray the God because she believes in Eru. So that's sometimes funny but a bit ridiculous. My conclusion's that no one really believes in Eru, but people might consider it as a nice joke or some fanatical fans might be gone too far...

[solarisa]

dude!!! to dig up an elfs bones!!! i would scream if it really happened...and after than, make up millions of theories, etc, etc, etc, etc.... .... ...

[daeron]

Davem, what stops a person from declaring anything as "God revealed" ?
I don't intend to try and make you doubt your faith, but just think if a "Tolkienian Gospel" (properly written) is carried around the world by a person as being "God revealed", there would be many who would flock to him (Of course, he would no doubt be dead before he leaves the city, courtesy fanatics and politicians ). Are there not many conmen around the world who take advantage of people's religious feelings and superstition?

Suppose, even today, I find an undiscovered island with people who have no knowledge of the world outside, I would be able to talk them into accepting "Eruism" as their faith and me as a Prophet. If the world were invaded by aliens who declared to be messengers of God, would not the ignorant believe them?

And Vanima, thanks for the links. They were really good. We should make efforts to get the site publically known. There are a few eyeopeners on Islam there. Especially the quotes from Quran.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by daeron

Are there not many conmen around the world who take advantage of people's religious feelings and superstition?

People do it all of the time. As I am more familiar with Christianity, I see many examples where persons declare that God has spoken to them, and had said 'something.' Some of the revelations are contrary to Christian doctrine, and prophetic statements are shown to be false/in error.

And yet these people still believe and support these persons. This example has stated the following:

• people will be healed and even raised from the dead by placing their hands on a TV on which he is broadcasting,

• Cuban dictator Fidel Castro will die in the 1990's,

• Jesus Christ will appear with this pastor on stage when he 'performs' in Africa.

Anyway, my point is that if I wanted to promote Eruism, I wouldn't come out and start shouting about it. I would find a more isolated and less-informed group of souls that already have some belief and slowly move them via new revelation over to Eruism. As an example, I could state that the Christian God's true name is Eru, as this is the true 'true' translation of YHWH.

And then just go from there...

If the person cited in the link can move people that far away from the Christian doctrine, then I don't see why I couldn't move them a bit further.

And lastly, how many writers, prophets and historical figures are screaming from the grave, "That's not what I meant!"

[Turgon Philip Noldor]

I want to inform you all that I will be off the Downs for some time now. I hope to have my own Thread ready when I come back. I am not going to be back for a while due to the poor internet accses where I am going. I might get on every once in a while to check how some of the Threads are going and what twist the convrsation is making. It's been a plesure talking to you all, nice talking to you in spicific daeron. I'll be praying for you.

God bless,
Turgon