Aragorn and Arwen: More than kissing?

[alatar]

Note that this thread is meant to be a mature discussion regarding Aragorn's and Arwen's relationship.

When watching the movies, this old wizard noted that Aragorn hung around Arwen's room a bit, and I think that they kissed while in the prone position. He seemed quite at ease around her and her room. Is one then to assume that while Aragorn was in Rivendell that he and Arwen were intimate?

If so, then to me this is another difference from the books. Is this a modernization by PJ for the 'younger than me' viewers who expect this to be shown or at least implied in movies today? I assumed that A&A may have held hands and shared a secret kiss or two, but that would have been about it - this is fantasy, and anything else usually happens after the end of the movie or is at least completely off-screen.

Again, if so, then how did 'Dad' aka Elrond feel about this? Was this why he wanted Aragorn out of the house, Arwen out of Middle Earth and the whole thing to end?

If A&A were already lovers, then what was stopping them from just eloping and living out their days in obscurity (or at least until Sauron turned the world to darkness)?

After re-viewing the same, something just didn't seem right - then again, maybe it's just that I'm old... .

[Mithalwen]

This issue has been discussed before in relation to the books and the stories of Aragorn and Arwen, and Beren and Luthien.

Regarding the books, neither of these couples can have consummated their relationships prior to marriage since by doing so they would have become married according to the laws of the Eldar by which although there are customary vows and ceremonies it is the act of union that makes the marrriage.

As far as the film goes, I think it merely leaves it up to the interpretation of the viewer - though I don't think it was excessive. I mean they were fully dressed and if youthink of the parts of the tale of Beren and Luthien that got people excited in the other thread (the fact that they went off together unchaperoned and the line "that in his arms lay glistening" etc ..) it seems quite tame. And if I remember the scene you are talking about.... wasn't it part of a dream sequence?

I have bumped the thread to which I refer since I still can't link.

"Oooh la la, Luthien"

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

As far as the film goes, I think it merely leaves it up to the interpretation of the viewer - though I don't think it was excessive. I mean they were fully dressed and if youthink of the parts of the tale of Beren and Luthien that got people excited in the other thread (the fact that they went off together unchaperoned and the line "that in his arms lay glistening" etc ..) it seems quite tame. And if I remember the scene you are talking about.... wasn't it part of a dream sequence?

Didn't think that there was anything explicit in the scenes, just wanted to know what the younger generation 'saw.' As you say, if they consumated their relationship, then technically they were married, and so this would affect Elrond's decision (maybe) regarding helping Aragorn. And if I were he, and if Arwen and Elrond were cool with the status quo, then I think that I would have caught up with the Fellowship sometime later - "sure, I'll be right behind you guys..."

I just felt that A&A seemed comfortable in each other's presence, and this did not give the feeling of the formality and 'jitters' associated with courting. Aragorn seemed to be crashed out on her bed with his boots up on her dresser (no, that's not in the film!) - not the thing one might expect in a fantasy film in a scene with two noble high breds in love.

[Mithalwen]

I have to say that that is one of the irritating things about elves (apart from the impossible elegance, skill, beauty, immortality things) is that in addition to all those things they generally have the instinct to know who the right person is for them and generally get it right .... obviously since they are stuck with each other for ever it is a good thing but..... for already lesser mortals, it is a bit galling.

So maybe since they "know"and they also have fixed boundaries... they are relaxed - though I wonder whether things would have been the same if Celebrian were around - daughters tend to be good at winding daddy and granny round their little fingers...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have to say that that is one of the irritating things about elves (apart from the impossible elegance, skill, beauty, immortality things) is that in addition to all those things they generally have the instinct to know who the right person is for them and generally get it right .... obviously since they are stuck with each other for ever it is a good thing but..... for already lesser mortals, it is a bit galling.

Though we are in the movies section of the forum, surely we could come up with a few elven relationships from the Silmarillion that were somewhat less than blissful. That one dark elf comes to mind.

So maybe since they "know"and they also have fixed boundaries... they are relaxed - though I wonder whether things would have been the same if Celebrian were around - daughters tend to be good at winding daddy and granny round their little fingers...

But did the moviegoer think this, or is this the cultural norm today - they are dating, and so they hang out together unchaperoned. Elrond didn't have a shotgun, but surely some weapon was handy for keeping Aragorn in line and feet firmly planted on the floor.

And my daughters will not date - ever (or at least until I realize the cost of keeping them around as young adults ).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

Though we are in the movies section of the forum, surely we could come up with a few elven relationships from the Silmarillion that were somewhat less than blissful. That one dark elf comes to mind.

And my daughters will not date - ever (or at least until I realize the cost of keeping them around as young adults ).

Certainly there are notable exceptions but if you read HoME then it does say that in general that this is true.

As for the movies, I guess there are a variety of possible responses - I guess some will assume a modern relationship but I think that would devalue the plot. If they are already a couple de facto then there is no choice, no reward.....

I have tosay it was the kiss at the end that startled me... bit more full on than you expect in a "you may now kiss the bride", practically bites her head off ...lol

As for your daughters ... well reverse psychology can work - I think my pa's "I trust your judgement" was far more effective than heavyhandedness, and make sure that they have sufficient ambition to spend their entire time doing homework

[Eruanna]

I think that the more 'intimate' scenes between Aragorn and Arwen in the films were merely the product of Peter Jackson's wish to 'beef up' Arwen's part and to take the film away from being seen as a boys only action story.
She is hardly mentioned in the book and the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the Appendices is a highly romanticised story which leaves most of the details of their courtship to our imagination. I think that this is a good thing too. After all:
"Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlorien," can conjure up different pictures of 'romance' depending on the reader's age and experience.

I don't know if Tolkien meant to imply that they were intimate. However, I think we need to remember that he was himself brought up in the Romantic Tradition and the idea of Courtly Love (ie pure and chaste) seemed to appeal to him. His own enforced separation from his beloved Edith has echoes in that of not only Beren and Luthien but of Aragorn and Arwen too.
There is also the moral climate of that time to take into account. Those were the days when film stars playing a married couple couldn't be shown even sitting on the same bed, without one of them having at least one foot on the floor!

In the film version of the story, I can see why Elrond would have been a bit put out, to say the least, at what seemed to be going on under his roof. He does seem to spend most of his time in a bad mood! However, in the book Elrond is only grieved at the relationship because of the differences in their lineages and more importantly because in loving Aragorn, Arwen must accept a mortal life and be forever sundered from her people.

Even if Arwen and Aragorn were already lovers I still don't see that they would have eloped. They couldn't hope to live out their days in obscurity, as you say, because Aragorn had a higher purpose to fulfill. Denying this would have made Aragorn lose something of his nobility. He would not have been the man she fell in love with. Besides, Arwen loved her dad and her duty towards him would have kept her from going against his wishes.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

There were precedents: The heir of last king Arvedui must have been born 'out of wedlock'

Aranarth born 1938, Arvedui not married to Firiel until 1940

It would have been interesting to learn how did they do it, if the communications were renewed in 1940 T.A. only. Story similar to Aragorn (as Thorongil) serving in Gondor as a mere captain in the days of his youth jumps to mind.

Here is where I try to knock holes in Heren's theory:

The problem with your theory is that you take Aranarth's birthdate from the HoME, which isn't a 100% canonical source. So it might well be that Tolkien ended up displacing this birthdate...

I doubt if he would have had the Chieftain of the Dunedain as an illegitimate son, although I can hardly say that it is impossible. I'm also doubting that if Aranarth was born in 1938, that it was as Firiel's son. I don't see Arvedui leaving the kingdom that, as Crown Prince, he is a main defender of.

Which leads to my alternative theory...

Firiel was Arvedui's second wife. His first, the mother of Aranarth, had died before; quite possibly in childbirth.

Interestingly, this little speculation could help to explain why Pelendur and the Lords of Gondor rejected the Arvedui-Firiel claim: it was based on FIRIEL's lineage, which would not be inherited by Aranarth. It could also explain why Aragorn, when making his claim and stating his lineage, declares himself the Heir of Elendil and Isildur, and makes no mention of Anarion.

Of course, I could be reading a lot more into this than necessary. However, I think I have successfully shown that Heren's presentation is far from solid.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Of course, I could be reading a lot more into this than necessary. However, I think I have successfully shown that Heren's presentation is far from solid

*H-I mutters under his breath: The cheek of these youngsters... they think they know everything, they do... I can't be having with that, can I?!. H-I reaches out for his books again...

All right, Sir:

HoME vol 12, the page previous to the one which stated Aranarth to be born in 1938:

24 [24th since Elendil-H-I] Araphant. born 1789 lived 175 years died 1964.

Angmar recovers and makes war on the Dunedain. Araphant seeks to renew ancient alliance and kinship with Gondor. In 1940 his heir Arvedui wedded Firiel daughter of King Ondohir [> Ondonir] of Gondor. But Gondor is engaged in the long Wars of the Wainriders, and sends little help. Ondohir [> Ondonir] and his sons fell in battle in 1944, and Arvedui claimed the crown of Gondor, on behalf of Firiel and himself as representing 'the elder line of Isildur', since no close male claimant to the throne in Gondor could at first be found. The claim was rejected by Gondor, but Arvedui and his descendants continued to consider themselves as the true heirs of Anarion as well as of Isildur

Page apart. No mention of other wives (you do bring more x-ses in than wipe out by this 'previous wife theory', you know that)

Same from the Gondor side of things:

31. Ondohir. [> Ondonir) born 1787 lived 157 years slain 1944.

War continued with the Wainriders. In 1940 Ondohir [> Ondonir] gave the hand of his daughter Firiel (born 1896), his third child, to Arvedui heir of Araphant, King of the North kingdom; but he was unable to send any help to the north against the evil realm of Angmar, because of his own peril. In 1944 Ondohir [> Ondonir] and both his sons Faramir and Artamir fell in battle against an alliance of the Wainriders and the Haradrim. The king and his sons fell in battle in the north and the enemy poured into Ithilien. But in the meantime Earnil Captain of the southern army won a victory in South Ithilien,
destroyed the army of Harad, and hastening north succoured the retreating remnants of the northern army, and drove the Wainriders off. In the great rout that followed most of the enemy were driven into the Dead Marshes.
On the death of Ondohir [>Ondonir] and his sons Arvedui of the North claimed the crown of Gondor as the 'direct descendant of Elendil', and as husband of Firiel. The claim was rejected by Gondor. At length Earnil the victorious Captain received the crown (in 1945), since he was of the royal house

Claim was made by Arvedui himself, not by Aranarth (even if we imagine (for a tiny moment) the impossibility of him not being Firiel's son)

P.S. Third party may lawfully knock holes in both theories, indicating the whole story as mere typo on Tolkien's part. But I prefer to dream romance behind it, masked Arvedui climbing the walls and swimming over Anduin to (not to lose sight of the title) kiss his beloved, that kind of thing. And little Aranarth being as much a cause for the wedding as political necessity may have been. Things tend to be hushed up in higher up circles, yer honour. Having in mind marriage customs, though, every union is automatically 'in wedlock', so 1940 T.A. may be viewed as the year of 'official rituals', confirming the fact.

cheers

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Page apart. No mention of other wives (you do bring more x-ses in than wipe out by this 'previous wife theory', you know that)

I was afraid that it said something along those lines... Pity, it was a nice theory.

Claim was made by Arvedui himself, not by Aranarth (even if we imagine (for a tiny moment) the impossibility of him not being Firiel's son)

Yes, I knew that Arvedui made the claim, and one his own behalf. However, Arvedui's claim rested on Firiel's descent from Anarion, whereas Aragorn makes no mention of Anarion, but explicit mention of Elendil and Isildur.

P.S. Third party may lawfully knock holes in both theories, indicating the whole story as mere typo on Tolkien's part. But I prefer to dream romance behind it, masked Arvedui climbing the walls and swimming over Anduin to (not to lose sight of the title) kiss his beloved, that kind of thing. And little Aranarth being as much a cause for the wedding as political necessity may have been. Things tend to be hushed up in higher up circles, yer honour. Having in mind marriage customs, though, every union is automatically 'in wedlock', so 1940 T.A. may be viewed as the year of 'official rituals', confirming the fact.

cheers

There you have the very reason that I find it unlikely. I just really don't Arvedui, Crown Prince of Arthedain in a time when it needed every captain it had, jumping off to Gondor for two or three years. And the Palantiri were still in possession of both Fornost and Minas Anor, so there is no diplomatic reason for his absence. My personal thought train, therefore, is that Tolkien got the dates somewhat mixed up (as he did in several other places), but that it was never noted or corrected.

[Anguirel]

I want to stick up for Heren Istarion's story. It's such lovely fanfiction! So I'll point out that it's standard in literature, and chivalric tradition, and much of the history of sexual interaction, for men to be lovers at a stage in their career before they become fighters.

I have Tolkien on my side, in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen".

I have historical logic on my side. Before men risked and often lost their lives, they wanted to imprint their genes on the world. Hence breeding sprees before and during the First World War.

And-most incontrovertibly-Shakespeare, who saw into minds and hearts, backs me up. Jaques in "As You Like It", in his Seven Ages of Man speech, lists

-Baby ("mewling and puking")
-Schoolboy ("creeping like a snail unwillingly to school")
-Lover (can't recall how he's described at all...)
-Soldier ("full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard")

For all these reasons, I declare that I envisage Arvedui being educated in courtly ways at Gondor, falling in love with Firiel and only after his passion is consummated and a child secretly born being summoned back to Arnor for war. Tearful farewell. Discovery of Aranarth. Negotiations. Arvedui summoned back to Gondor for a more-than-shotgun marriage.

Furthermore, I'd like to see someone write this...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I have historical logic on my side. Before men risked and often lost their lives, they wanted to imprint their genes on the world. Hence breeding sprees before and during the First World War.

Think that that's biological - in bad times maybe the species can 'breed' an answer to the stressor.

Plus, in regards to going off to war, it's a great line for guys to use..."we may never be together again."

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I want to stick up for Heren Istarion's story. It's such lovely fanfiction! So I'll point out that it's standard in literature, and chivalric tradition, and much of the history of sexual interaction, for men to be lovers at a stage in their career before they become fighters.

I have Tolkien on my side, in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen".

Aha!!

The primary reason, right there, that I do not find Heren's theory totally convincing. You DON'T have Tolkien on your side. Whatever PJ may have intended in the movies, I think it should be clear that TOLKIEN, in his own mind if never explicitly stated in the books, saw Aragorn and Arwen as waiting for marriage. Now, this doesn't necessarily affect Arvedui's story. After all, just because Aragorn is noble doesn't mean his great-manys-grandfather was. However, Tolkien (the man, if not necessarily the book) is NOT on your side.

As for your suggestion that Aragorn was more needed in Arnor than Arvedui had been, I doubt it. The Dunedain of the North had been led by somebody other than Aragorn during all the long years that he was growing up in Rivendell. Furthermore, Arvedui was a prince (and if he was in a Boromir-like situation as I imagine, then he was also a major captain as well) at a time when Angmar was a very dangerous threat to Arthedain's survival. Whereas in Aragorn's day, the danger was to Gondor, from Mordor.

Plainly not the same.

Resting my case for the moment,

Formendacil

[Lotrelf]

As said, this is a "mature" discussion, so I'm avoiding reading the whole thread. But in the movies I didn't really like those scenes of Aragorn and Arwen. In the book I was kind of suprised seeing Aragorn does not keep fantacizing about Arwen all the time. Books are clean and do not contain anything like this except Eowyn and Faramir's kiss (that one wasn't awkward to me). But Aragorn and Arwen went toooo faaaaar in the movies! May be that's just me.