Bard & The Master Vs Aragorn & the House of Stewards

[Bywaters]

I was wondering if anyone noticed the similarities between the story of the Bard and the Master of Lake town in The Hobbit to the relationship between Aragorn and the House of Stewards in LotR?

In The Hobbit we see how the men of Esgaroth are ruled by the Master who is not heir to the throne of Dale where as the Bard is. In LotR we have a similar situation where the rightful king of Gondor (Aragorn) in not on the throne and Denethor is. In both cases the current ruler seems less keen to fight for "his people" where as the true heir is and does.

Any comments?

[littlemanpoet]

Right off the cuff, I see one difference and one thing in common. First the difference: Denethor is a Numenorean and is much concerned with his name and lineage and reputation, whereas the Master is a mere commoner concerned with lining his pockets. The thing in common is that both are tyrants rather than rightful kings; a recent letter of Tolkien I read (sorry, can't remember the number) has JRRT comparing tyranny versus rightful kingship; so that stuck out to me.

I find it interesting what it took to unseat each tyrant. Can't go into it now for lack of time, but maybe others could?

[Lalwendë]

How is Denethor a tyrant? Yes, he is not the king, but the stewardship is a hereditary title, and as such he is entitled to it, and is entitled to exercise his stewardship as he sees fit, until such a time as the King returns.

Could we call him a tyrant if he was democratically elected?

He could easily be called a tyrant if he had 'taken' control, by use of economic or military power, overthrowing another ruler or government, but if his title is hereditary surely he is allowed to rule as he sees fit?

Or do you mean a tyrant in that he is not keen on the idea of relinquishing his stewardship on the emergence of Aragorn? For myself, I would have said that he willingly gives up his claim in any case, and spares Aragorn the trouble of removing a tyrant, so could he be said to have been a tyrant anyway? Or am I running this idea round in circles?

[HerenIstarion]

lmp, I reckon notes to Auden's review of LoTR (L183) is the one you had in mind?

Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest.

But that was not the policy or duty set out by the Council of Elrond. Only after hearing the debate and realizing the nature of the quest did Frodo accept the burden of his mission. Indeed the Elves destroyed their own polity in pursuit of a 'humane' duty. This did not happen merely as an unfortunate damage of War; it was known by them to be an inevitable result of victory, which could in no way be advantageous to Elves. Elrond cannot be said to have a political duty or purpose.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Or do you mean a tyrant in that he is not keen on the idea of relinquishing his stewardship on the emergence of Aragorn?

I suppose, yes, that's the one. And probable consequences as given above

cheers

[littlemanpoet]

Actually, H-I, I - um - haven't gotten that far. I'll have to go back and take a look. But thanks for the great quote anyway! It's nice to have one's notions verified. But to answer Lalwendé myself, insofar as Denethor's rule was unjust. Tyranny existed long before modern democratic government. Tolkien's standard of comparison was, I think, medieval (pre-feudal) kingship, such as Ælfred and his earls.

[Bywaters]

Good points.
In both cases the events of the stories allow for the rightful King to return without a major confrontation between the parties involved. In LotR it would have been a whole different story if Boromir had'nt died. In the film as he is dying, he tells Aragorn that he would follow him but this is'nt in the book. With his father dead he would be Steward. Would he give the throne to Aragorn? Then again, I dont think that Denethor would have killed himself if Boromir was still alive!

[Formendacil]

"Girion was lord of Dale, not king of Esgaroth," he [the master] said. "In Lake-town we have always elected masters from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule mere fighting men. Let 'King Bard' go back to his own kingdom- Dale is now freed by his valour, and nothing hinders his return. And any that wish can go with him, if they prefer the cold stones under the shadow of the Mountain to the green shores of the lake. The wise will stay here and hope to rebuild our town, and enjoy again in time its peace and riches."

-"Fire and Water", from The Hobbit

You, I got to think that there is a LOT of similarity between what the Master says here and Pelendur's reply to Arvedui. After all, Arvedui's claim, as Heir of Isildur, was rejected by Pelendur, who basically said that Isildur had forfeited his claim to the throne of Gondor. (Which is why Aragorn stresses his position as the Heir of Elendil. If Arvedui had been rejected, then why should his Heir have a better claim?)

Let's rewrite this quote from The Hobbit, as if it were Pelendur speaking to Arvedui, and not the Master to Bard:

"Isildur was King of Arnor, and forfeited the Kingship of Gondor," he [Pelendur] said. "In Gondor we have always been ruled by Kings from the line of Anarion, and have not endured the claims of any others. Let 'King Arvedui' go back to his own kingdom- Arthedain is still free by his valour, and nothing hinders his rule. And any that wish can go with him, if they prefer the cold stones under the shadow of the Angmar to the green fields of the South. The wise will stay here and hope to rebuild our kingdom, and enjoy again in time its peace and riches."

A parallel perchance?