Smith of Wootton Major in Middle Earth?

[littlemanpoet]

Reading the Letters of Tolkien, I came across an interesting description in Letter #131 (one of the longest in the book). It said:

In those days [the Númenóreans] would come amongst Wild Men an almost divine benefactors, bringing gifts of arts and knowledge, and passing away again - leaving many legends behind of kings and gods out of the sunset.

There's a little episode in Smith of Wootton Major that this sparked to my memory (accompanied by an amazing Pauline Baynes illustration):

[Smith] stood beside the Sea of Windless Storm where the blue waves like snow-clad hills roll silently out of Unlight to the long strand, bearing the white ships that return from battles on the Dark Marches of which men know nothing. He saw a great ship cast high upon the land, and the waters fell back in foam without a sound. The eleven mariners were tall and terrible; their swords shone and their spears glinted and a piercing light was in their eyes. Suddenly they lifted up their voices in a song of triumph, and his heart was shaken with fear, and he fell upon his face, and they passed over him and went into the echoing hills.

There is enough difference so that my snappy thread title is revealed as a bald attempt to get your attention.

But if Middle Earth is part of the Realm of Fairy, who knows? Is this just an example of one of those common themes that haunted Tolkien's mind? What think you?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'll need more time to ponder this interesting question, lmp, but my first spontaneous thoughts are these: The Sea is the passage-way from one to the other. The Elven mariners in Smith come over the Sea, the Sea separates Middle-earth from Valinor, which can be reached only by finding the Straight Path, so could we speculate that there is another Straight Path somewhere in the Sea between Valinor and our Earth? Of course, according to Tolkien's original plan, Middle-earth is our earth, only very long ago or in another time dimension. That raises the question of time travelling by Sea, perhaps?

[davem]

bearing the white ships that return from battles on the Dark Marches of which men know nothing.

Few quick notes:

If the Elven mariners are 'coming home' their home must be Faerie itself, where Smith encounters them.

If 'men know nothing' of the battles on the Dark Marches then those battles cannot take place in the human world - they must take place 'elsewhere'. This means that there is a 'third' place - not the human world & not Faerie (because the Elven mariners are returning to Faerie. 'Marches' are borderlands (like the Welsh Marches, the borderlands between England & Wales) - which implies that Faerie borders on some other realm & there is a territorial dispute of some kind going on. A further implication would be that, as the Marches are 'Dark' then the battle is some kind of war between Light & Darkness - or more precisely between 'Light' (their swords shone and their spears glinted and a piercing light was in their eyes) & 'Unlight'.

So, we seem to be given a glimpse of an on-going cosmic battle, fought between Elves on the one side & ...what?.. on the other.

[littlemanpoet]

What makes you think they're Elves, davem? I always thought they were Men.

Actually, your deductive approach to the quoted text seems, well, vain. The text is evocative, meant to evoke an amazing moment in Fairy; unless you are playing detective regarding the title of this thread. In which case, I tempted you, so "mea culpa".

[davem]

Originally Posted by LmP

What makes you think they're Elves, davem? I always thought they were Men.

Well, I know you gave the passage as:

The eleven mariners were tall and terrible;

but Tolkien did write Elven - as far as I remember - don't have the book to hand.

On the other hand, the idea of such a specific number of warriors being given adds a certain charm to the incident....

But I think they must have been Elves, given the light in their eyes & their shining swords....

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I do have the book to hand, and it is "elven", so the mariners are definitely Elves. Sorry to burst the interesting bubble about a specific number. From the context, we can assume that both their goal at home and that of their journey to the Dark Marches, where they fought, are located in Faery, since Smith was in Faery when he saw them there. So the connection between the Elves and our world is not through their journey. It is Smith himself who makes the transition from real life to Faery, by way of the star, and he made the journey by foot or by horse.

On closer scrutiny, we therefore have no additional Straight Path, no doorway from one world to the other, no time transition - though it would have been interesting to explore those ideas more...

[littlemanpoet]

Well, davem, if Tolkien wrote Elven, then my book has a misprint. I do find it interesting that eleven is the only number that has the word elven within it.

Perhaps charm is a satsifactory answer for why eleven. The question was percolating in my mind this morning, and then I read your post. Why not twelve, which is such a fraught number in terms of symbol? Or ten for the same reason? And it occurred to me that that could have been reason enough to avoid them. JRRT had good instincts, to say the least.

I'm interested in the recurrence of the theme, though. Smith's reaction is abject fear. He is fortunate that the warriors merely pass over him; which is to say, probably, that they did not count him worth their notice. But this "high and noble warriors coming ashore" thing (not to mention technically advanced?); could it be an English thing? A remnant of the trauma of the Norman Invasion, perhaps? Sheer speculation, I grant you, but I'm having fun with it.

[littlemanpoet]

I've been reading a chapter a day (more or less) in The Hobbit and I came across the following aside where the wood-elves are introduced: speaking of the wood-elves:

They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World

So the Light-elves are the Vanyar, the Deep-elves are the Noldor, and the Sea-elves are the Teleri.

But that's not my main point in bringing up the quote: Valinor is called Faerie!

Way out on a limb here, but it's a nice limb .... .... suppose the Star gave Smith the unique permission to go to Valinor!

[Bêthberry]

Or Fairie came to be called Valinor, lmp

Well done! This is a fascinating observation and serves to suggest also the merit in having a Chapter by Chapter reading club for The Hobbit when the one on LotR concludes.

[littlemanpoet]

Either way, Bêthberry, Alf would therefore be Manwë, and the Queen of Faerie would be Varda! Such company Smith kept! Not that I'm convinced of this, but it's fun to imagine it this way.

[HerenIstarion]

Is this just an example of one of those common themes that haunted Tolkien's mind

yes

[davem]

Originally Posted by LMP

But that's not my main point in bringing up the quote: Valinor is called Faerie!

We have to remember that TH was not intended to be part of the Legendarium, & Tolkien merely made use of certain elements from it. Quite possibly he was using them merely to give background to the story, without intending them to be analysed so deeply. Of course, TH wasn't the only story in which he did this.
There's an interesting note to the text of Roverandom:

the shadowy seas ... and the light of Faery upon the waves
The earliest text has: It was the whale who took them to the Bay of Fairyland beyond the Magic Isles, & they saw far off in the West the Shores of Fairyland.#, & the Mountains of the Last Land & the Light of Fairyland upon the waves.' I Tolkien's mythology the Shadowy Seas & the Magic Isles hide & guard Aman (Elvenhome, & the home of the Valar or Gods) from the rest of the world.

The final text continues:

Roverandom thought he caught a glimpse of the city of the Elves on the green hill beneath the mountains, a glint of white far away; but Uin (the great whale of the story) dived again so suddenly that he could not be sure. If he was right, he is one of the few creaures, on two legs or four, who can walk about our own lands & say that they have glimpsed that other land, however far away.
'I should catch it, if this was found out!' said Uin. Noone from the Outer Lands is supposed ever to come here; & few ever do now. Mum's the word!'

While TH did get taken up into the Legendarium, Roverandom did not, & Smith, I believe, was not meant to be included either. Having said that, I think it would be easier to include Roverandom in the mythology then it would Smith - after all the mentions of Fairyland/'Valinor' & its geography in that work are more explicit than in Smith (or even in TH come to that). Of course, if we did include Roverandom then it would make it a bit easier to explain the talking animals in TH & LotR!

[Findegil]

Alf, as the Elvenking is named in wotton major does not age normaly. It is observed in the tale that he was considered very young for an apprentice when he came with Waller the fromer master cook. And he was still considered to young to be master cook when Waller left. Then in the end we see Nokes as an Old man and Smith as grown up how has a grandchild but still Alf has the full vigor and youth that he had have from the start, even so he looks now more grown up as it seems.

I can't see were you get the idea that he had come before of would come again later in other guise. In my oppinion Waller was the first to get the star and it is an open question what happend to it when the grandchild of Nokes has to give the Star back. But when I remember rightly Alf had have an apparentice who became master cook when he left.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Alf, as the Elvenking is named in wotton major does not age normaly. It is observed in the tale that he was considered very young for an apprentice when he came with Waller the fromer master cook. And he was still considered to young to be master cook when Waller left. Then in the end we see Nokes as an Old man and Smith as grown up how has a grandchild but still Alf has the full vigor and youth that he had have from the start, even so he looks now more grown up as it seems.

I can't see were you get the idea that he had come before of would come again later in other guise. In my oppinion Waller was the first to get the star and it is an open question what happend to it when the grandchild of Nokes has to give the Star back. But when I remember rightly Alf had have an apparentice who became master cook when he left.

Respectfuly
Findegil

I haven't read Smith in over a year, so my memmory is hazy. I might have assumed something that wasn't written, or forgot something that was. I apologise for that stupid question.