Tactical Discussion-Warg Charge

[WarBringer]

Thanks to Neurion for the idea-----One of the most fearsome displays of evil's power would have to be a charge of Wargs. In your opinion, what would be the best way to combat a charge of these enormous wolves, ridden by fearsome orcs?

[King of the North]

There is already a thread very similar in movies, here it is

click here

[Formendacil]

Something to note too is that book Wargs (real Wargs, setting aside the Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread) as described in The Hobbit:

The Wargs and the goblins often helped one another in their wicked deeds. Goblins do not usually venture very far from their mountains, unless they are driven out and are looking of rnew homes, or are marching to war (which I am happy to say has not happened for a long while). But in those days they sometimes used to go on raids, especially to get slaves to work for them. Then they often got the Wargs to help and shared the plunder with them. Sometimes they rode on wolves like men do on horses. Now it seemed that....
-Out of the Frying Pan Into the Fire

Take especial note of the sentence I have underlined. Sometimes they (the goblins[/u] rode on wolves. The indication, it would seem, is that Warg-riding was the exception and not the norm. In addition, the only encounter with Wargs in The Lord of the Rings is just after Caradhras, and just before Moria, and it is TOTALLY ork-less.

The whole movie-invented idea of Warg-riders in the service of Saruman is just that, a movie-invented idea. I seem to recollect that there MIGHT be a passage somewhere referring to wolf-riders in Saruman's host, although I can't find it, and might be imagining it, but it is certainly true that there were no Wargs in the host of Isengard.

Every indication is that the Wargs did not, in fact, typically get ridden (although the above passage and the Battle of the Five Armies will show that it was certainly not unheard of). And in any case, I believe that there is ample evidence in The Hobbit as to the ferociousness of the Wargs on their own.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

As to references to orcish wolf-riders, in Unfinished Tales,
"The Battles Of The Fords Of Isen":

Saruman's eastern force came down with unexpected speed; it was much smaller than the western force, but more dangerous. In its van were some Dunlending horsemen and a great pack of the dreadful Orcish wolfriders, feared by horses. Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles. The horsemen and wolfriders fell on the horse-herds and picketed horses and slew or dispersed them.

And later in the chapter, about the second battle of the Fords of Isen:

More than half of Saruman's force had actually been sent down east of Isen. They came on more slowly than the western division, for the land was rougher and without roads; and they bore no lights. But before them, swift and silent, went several troops of the dreaded wolfriders. Before Elfhelm had any warning of the approach of enemies on his side of the river the wolfriders were between him and Grimbold's camp; and they were also attempting to surround each of his small groups of Riders. It was dark and all his force was in disarray. He gathered all that he could into a close body of horsemen, but he was obliged to retreat eastward. He could not reach Grimbold, though he knew that he was in straits and had been about to come to his aid when attacked by the wolfriders. But he also guessed rightly that the wolfriders were only the forerunners of a force far too great for him to oppose that would make for the southern road.

And in a footnote:

They were swift and skilled in avoiding ordered men in close array, being used mostly to destroy isolated groups or to hunt down fugitives; but at need they would pass with reckless ferocity through any gaps in companies of horsemen, slashing at the bellies of the horses. [Christopher Tolkien note]

Also note the interesting note of Dunlending cavalry.

I picture Tolkien's wargs not as the ridiculously-sized PJ whatevers, but
more as wolfs on steroids, big and mean, but still recognizably wolfish.

[WarBringer]

Exactly what I was getting at, Tuor- Good Post.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

I picture Tolkien's wargs not as the ridiculously-sized PJ whatevers, but more as wolfs on steroids, big and mean, but still recognizably wolfish.

Yes, you have hit it right on the head Tuor. This is how I see them in my mind's eye.

Originally Posted by King of the North

There is already a thread very similar in movies, here it is click here

Yeah, but that is for the hyenas in the movies. As you can see from Tuor's post, it was in Unfinished Tales, hence a thread in the 'Books' forum.

[mormegil]

But how big do you mean when you say a wolf on Steroids? If they were ridden at times they would need to be substantially larger than the average wolf. I would say at least a lion size but even still would that be sufficiently large to carry an orc into combat and be effective?

[eowyntje]

Originally Posted by mormegil

But how big do you mean when you say a wolf on Steroids? If they were ridden at times they would need to be substantially larger than the average wolf. I would say at least a lion size but even still would that be sufficiently large to carry an orc into combat and be effective?

I think it depends on the kind of orcs that rode these wolfs, there are different kind of orcs of different sizes. Small races of orcs would be weak as infantry, but very usefull as wolfriders.
I couldn't find any information about what kind of orcs rode the wargs. Keeper of Dol Guldur mentioned that they were small, perhaps he knows.

As for fighting against wolfriders, that would not be easy. When defending a castle I don't tihnk wolves are a big thretah to stone walls, but in open fields (and I assume that is where Saruman used his wolfrides are that is where they would be most effective) they would be veyr hard to stop.
I think arrows and barred wire would indee dbe effetcive methods, anything that allows you to stay a few armlengths away from the wargs. Also, in the hobbit Bilbo and the dwarfs were followed by wolves and climbed in trees to escape them, so perhaps Archers on high places like in trees or watchtowers would be able to fight them.
Normal wolves are afraid of fire, so perhaps that would also be a way to fight or at leats scare the wargs. But it is very likely that demonic wolves like wargs are not afraid of fire.

[WarBringer]

Actually, according to the hobbit, wargs are afraid of fire, because that is precisely what Gandalf uses to kill several wolves and wargs.

[Felagund]

I have heard much about traps and pitfalls and the like in this thread... but this brings a question to my mind... has anyone actually seen any record in any battle of middle-earth that speaks of field fortifications, or the use of such things as wire and traps? I for one have not, with the sole exception of the wall surrounding the Pelennor fields, which was abandoned as being undefensible in the afce of Sauron's onslaught.
It seems to me that there is not much in the way of stratgey or formation in the combats of middle-earth. The fighting to me seems more of the "old" style, ie pre-Roman British wildmen charges. I have heard no tell of shield walls, or wedges for cavalry, or any mixed formation of pikes and archers. It seems to be all charge and counter-charge. However, to be fair, the most detailed battle accounts I have seen come from the Silmarillion, so perhaps tactics did evolve over the course of a few ages? I doubt it.
The account of the Battle of the Five Armies, which conveniently enough demonstrates the use of wolf-riders, was, as far as I could tell, a shoving match between the two sides. The elves and men took up positions on the arms of the mountain, the dwarves took their stand at the base, and then the black tide swept into them. Here begins the shoving match, as the elves and men sallied forth from the mountainside, pushing back the goblins and wolves with great slaughter, until Bolg and his bodyguard brought up reinforcements and pushed the allies back up the mountain.
Also referenced in that battle, it is said the Elven-King brought archers and spearmen, but no mention is made of any formation. The battles seem to be a mass of one-on-one fights rather than formations and companies brought to bear against each other.

On another note, pertaining to combat in Middle-earth, personal defense doesn't seem to be an issue to most parties involved. The Rangers of the North on the fields of the Pelennor had either swords, spears, or bows, but no mention was made of armor or shields of any sort. The wood elves encountered by The Grey Company in Lorien carried bows and swords; again no armor. However, I also assume these troops are not meant to be infantry, per se, so this may account for the lack of armor. How heavily armored are most middle-earth combatants?

I have deviated however. The best way to take a charge of wargs (ridden or unridden) is definitely NOT with cavalry. I doubt the horses could stand to charge the wolves, plus the use of horse as weapon is lost, because the warg is a much better weapon. Heavy infantry is the only way to do it, regardless of how they are equipped. I bet dwarves would do well, as axes could do horrible damage to both wolf and rider. Sorry for rambling, it's my first post and I got excited.

[mormegil]

Well first I would like to say welcome to The Downs to Felagund. And than I would like to address your question.

I agree that we don't see traps and wires used in the books but, as I am one of those that mentions it in this thread, I would assert that I put it forth as my way of handling a warg charge. Not saying this is how. I found that if they could do that there is a possibility that it wouuld be effective.

Secondly, I think that Tolkien didn't write much about warfare tatics and that's why we speculate.

So you are suggesting though that heavily armored warriors or dwarves, again heavily armored, would be able to stop a charge? I like the thought, however, I wonder if you would incorporate archers shooting the Wargs before the onslaught? Would pikemen play any role? Do you think that Men, Elves, or Dwarves would be best in this and why? I wouldn't pick dwarves, while stong and steadfast I don't think they would have the needed speed to dodge the Wargs. Which leave us, in my opinion, as elves or men.

I don't have much time now to consider that one but I would like your opinion on that.

[mormegil]

But getting to the question of how to handle a Warg Charge....I think you would need to handle it the same as you would a horse charge...take out as many as you can with archers and then form a strong spear/pike line. And after they break through wait to be ravished....However if you have horsemen I think you would have the advantage of tactics. Unlike horses wargs can have a will of their own and decide to dissent in opinion of the orc rider (assuming they are riding). Horses are submissive and will go where there master commands but wargs might not and may have objectives of their own differing from their orc riders....make any sense?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Well, I too pictured them as big fluffy wolves on 'roids, twice the size of a real wolf, but not as big as a bear ... with pointy snouts and jagged craws.

But the hyena idea is not an innaccurate depiction. The definition of wolf in a dictionary often makes mention of "other similar species; hyenas".

Of course, that simply means when I read the books, I have a different idea in mind than what I've seen in the movies.

It seemed to me that Saruman was the only one employing warg-riders ... who were smaller orcs of the Misty Mountain variety (obviously a warg would have trouble supporting a massive Uruk-Hai) ... goblins of the like from the Hobbit.

But there was mention of wargs howling on the Pelennor, and fearful cries, weren't there? And Gandalf did mention that Sauron housed wargs (and werewolves - his loyal creatures, remnants of his force on Tol Sirion) at Barad-Dur.

Naturally harsh, barren terrain like Mordor wasn't prime wolf territory like the pine woods around the Misty Mountains ... so that would be a big explanation.

As for the best way to combat wargs ...

Arrows. Archers on the high ground have always been effective against cavalry.

[Maerbenn]

The Professor hints at the nature of Wargs in a footnote to letter #297:

The word Warg used in The Hobbit and the L.R. for an evil breed of (demonic) wolves is not supposed to be A-S specifically, and is given prim. Germanic form as representing the noun common to the Northmen of these creatures.

[WarBringer]

Wargs are much more fierce than horses, it is in their every nature (they're wolfish and eat meat!), so i don't think that the same tactics as a horse charge would apply here.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Orcs would be wise to use hungry Wargs; they'd be even more bloodthirsty then.