Feanor's Wrath

[WarBringer]

This is a topic that has always made me think, especially since Feanor is my favorite character in the Silmarillion. We all know that in a fit of arrogance and rage, thinking to fight his way into the very presence of Morgoth, Feanor was surrounded and slain by Gothmog, and his Balrogs. My question is, do you think the fate of the Noldor would have been any different if Feanor had survived? I'll post my opinion after of few of you have. I'm curious to hear what you have to say...

[the phantom]

This old thread might be of interest to you, WarBringer.

[WarBringer]

Thanks Phantom, I have actually seen that thread before and wanted to expand on it, but i thank you nevertheless for your thoughtfulness...
To clarify, my question is not whether Feanor's death was good for the Noldor, but rather would would have happened in Feanor had lived (predictions, thoughts, history altering events, etc)

[Angry Hill Troll]

I think a likely outcome would have been an arms race. Certainly Fëanor had the technical skills to continue to construct new and better weapons, to which he would have devoted all his energies trying to force his way into Angband and regain the Silmarils.

Of course Morgoth did devote all his energies into creating more fearsome monsters, which eventually allowed him to break the siege of Angband and drive the Elves south.

Certainly Morgoth would have had a harder time doing this if Fëanor had been around to counter him.

On the other hand, there probably would not have been the 450 years of peace before the Dagor Bragollach during which the Edain became enlightened by their contact with the Elves. Fëanor certainly would not have been interested in constructing anything but weaponry until he had regained the Silmarils. It seems that for Men, their contact with the Elves might have given them lots of military technology but not much wisdom or culture.

In short, the War of the Jewels might have looked a lot like WWI, perhaps a reason the Tolkien didn't write the story that way.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I can't substantiate much of my conjunctions, but it was prophesied that Feanor can never defeat Morgoth...

"The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art."

The picture that forms in my mind was eerily familiar... Feanor led the Noldor in Beleriand, conquered every inch land and imposed his 'glorious Noldor culture' on every turf except for Angband. He and his artisians designed complex and deadly weapons to lay siege on Angband. He try to 'persuade' Doriath and his astranged kinsman into alliance, but fail to do so. So he declared war on Doriath as well... Then one day, the skies fumed over as Morgoth unleashed his countless minions onto the Noldor...

Of course, the entire episode has too little background to hold any water, but Feanor's personality echo too much of some past megalomaniac to be discounted...

[WarBringer]

Even if he had lived, I believe Feanor would not necessarily have helped the cause of the Eldar. In fact, I've considered that the destruction of men may have come about. Think about it- Morgoth had sowed within him an anger toward men, the "usurpers" of the Eldar's land. Feanor may have sought their destruction, which would have never allowed for the unions of man and elf, which may have allowed Morgoth and/or Sauron to rule forever...this is just one of my many opinions on this issue, and im curious to hear what you all think of it...

[WarBringer]

Not only that, but one can only imagine Feanor trying to get along with Thingol. Two Headstrong elves=trouble...

[mormegil]

I believe that had Feanor lived he would have brought destruction on the Noldor much sooner. His impatience led to tatically unsound manuvers and combined with his ability to get others to follow him would have led to a premature war in which the Noldor would have suffered a grim defeat and their numbers would have waned greatly. Also I think the schism between Fingolfin's people and Feanor's would have been much more difficult to heal.

[WarBringer]

Very true mormegil, but perhaps even a premature war would not have been a grim defeat if Feanor, most skilled of the Elves, had prepared them.

[mormegil]

But I feel that the main problem is that he wouldn't have prepared. Just like he didn't prepare for the entire journey...nor did he take much thought by marching up to Thangorodrim and leaving his army behind...I just think there is too much wrath and pride in him to make logical decisions...plus I think that feeling his oath weigh upon him he would rush his hand again if he survived and be caught in one of morgoth's traps.

[WarBringer]

Originally Posted by mormegil

But I feel that the main problem is that he wouldn't have prepared. Just like he didn't prepare for the entire journey...nor did he take much thought by marching up to Thangorodrim and leaving his army behind...I just think there is too much wrath and pride in him to make logical decisions...plus I think that feeling his oath weigh upon him he would rush his hand again if he survived and be caught in one of morgoth's traps.

Yet he may be the only person who could have united everyone under one banner to face Morgoth.

Originally Posted by mormegil

But I feel that the main problem is that he wouldn't have prepared. Just like he didn't prepare for the entire journey...nor did he take much thought by marching up to Thangorodrim and leaving his army behind...I just think there is too much wrath and pride in him to make logical decisions...plus I think that feeling his oath weigh upon him he would rush his hand again if he survived and be caught in one of morgoth's traps.

I have to strongly agree with mormegil. If Feanor had avoided the balrogs, he would have run right to face Morgoth. And got killed. Morgoth would have been wounded, too, but not slayed. Remember the Fingolfin vs. Morgoth's outcome.

I cannot see any else possible alternative history. Of course, all the events would have run in a different way, if Feanor had been less harsh, and more calm. But that Feanor is not the Feanor we all know (and love?).

[mormegil]

I think had Feanor gotten control of himself and his wrath. Then yes he would have been a very great general. The two main problems he would face are uniting the people under his banner and shaking off the curse of Mandos...the whole treachery from within thing.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The most interesting "alternate history" scenario would have
been the Noldor and elf allies returning to
Middle-earth without the Curse of Mandos, as was clearly possible. It
was clearly stated (in The Silmarillion?) that
there was no bar per se to elves leaving Valinor. Without a Curse
it is conceivable that a "balance of power"
might have evolved in Beleriand and that (like in the 1940s-1980s
Cold War) the conflict between elves/Edain and
Morgoth might have moved to the Third World of the rest of
Middle-earth, rather like the standoff in Europe
between NATO and the Warsaw Pact, in which case you could
have the houses of the dwarves and men
as much sought after allies by both sides.

[Anguirel]

Not sure I quite buy your Cold War idea, Tuor. Maybe it's just the astoundingly dull way we were taught it.

On Feanor; he was, like Luthien but in a different way, too bright to exist for long. He would never have moderated his ambition to avenge his father-which to him was a much greater blow, of course, that the rape of the Silmarils. He could not but die. Apart from anything else, his fiery genius would have consumed him at the last. He is an Achillean figure who has chosen immortality above survival.

This, much though Feanor impresses me, was a good thing. Maedhros, Fingolfin and Fingon were far more diplomatic, patient and able rulers. Feanor would have raged against everything he saw as constricting his revenge. Far frm uniting the Elves, he would have been severely divisive; at worst he would have ended up doing Morgoth's work for him, as his unfortunate oathbound sons did much later.

Oddly, though, Feanor's temperament could be said to have lingered on to an extent in Galadriel, though she exercised it with more wisdom.

I wonder how Feanor gets on in Mandos; but I would not be surprised if he defies Namo and the other Valar to this day. Perhaps Miriel has calmed his anger...

[WarBringer]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Not sure I quite buy your Cold War idea, Tuor. Maybe it's just the astoundingly dull way we were taught it.

On Feanor; he was, like Luthien but in a different way, too bright to exist for long. He would never have moderated his ambition to avenge his father-which to him was a much greater blow, of course, that the rape of the Silmarils. He could not but die. Apart from anything else, his fiery genius would have consumed him at the last. He is an Achillean figure who has chosen immortality above survival.

On the contrary, I believe his fiery genius would have spurred him on. Keep in mind that Feanor was not a suicidal, homicidal elf consumed with war. He was a elf of great subtlety of hand, and, given time, would have been able to think things through. Surely such an elf would realize "Oh S---, did I just leave paradise?" Think about Maedhros, his son. As he matured, Maedhros became quite virtous, recognizing that only through a united force could the elves defeat Morgoth. And, as they say, the apple doesnt fall far from the tree...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

While Feanor had virtues, in temperament he and Maedhros bear
comparison to Sonny Corleone ("you can't do business with
that hothead") and his brother Michael.

An Elder/Edain alliance, however, without the Curse of Mandos
and led by Maedhros, would not only be united
and,of course, not cursed (duh!) but would have a maia of their
own as an ally with the same haven of Menegroth to rally
at if they suffered defeats. And perhaps with
periodic reinforcements from Aman since there would be nothing to
prevent further elvish emigration.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by WarBringer

On the contrary, I believe his fiery genius would have spurred him on. Keep in mind that Feanor was not a suicidal, homicidal elf consumed with war. He was a elf of great subtlety of hand, and, given time, would have been able to think things through. Surely such an elf would realize "Oh S---, did I just leave paradise?" Think about Maedhros, his son. As he matured, Maedhros became quite virtous, recognizing that only through a united force could the elves defeat Morgoth. And, as they say, the apple doesnt fall far from the tree...

I think that the personality of Fëanor is divided into his sons. Look at how different each of his sons were...compare Curufin to Maglor. I don't think the Fëanor would have matured in the same way that Maedhros did. I think he was so consumed with himself and his own desires (getting the Silmarils) that he would drive a wedge into any possible alliance between his people and others so that there would be no alliance. And withou an alliance, the free people of middle earth would fail in any attempt to overthrow morgoth. Not that there was ever much hope anyway.

[Angry Hill Troll]

I tend to disagree with the Cold War analogy. The reason I say this has to do with the difference in the temperaments of those concerned. The Cold War, fortunately for all concerned, stayed "cold" rather than involving the use of both sides' nuclear arsenals (in which case it's unlikely that we would be having this discussion now).

This happened because both sides were deterred by the prospect of being annihilated by the other side's weapons. To put it another way, both sides ultimately cared more about their own survival than about destroying their enemies, and thus maintained coexistance for 40 years in spite of great tensions and large differences in ideology.

What about the situation in Beleriand? Well, Tolkien says that by this point in time Morgoth had become fundamentally a nihilist

left to his own devices he would only have gone raging on until all was reduced to a formless chaos

(HoME X). Morgoth would therefore have been perfectly happy with Mutual Assured Destruction, being willing to destroy himself at the same time as the rest of Arda.

As for Fëanor, he was constrained by his Oath. Recall that the exact wording was

to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World...whoso should should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.

Note that it wasn't actually to regain the Silmarils, just to attack anyone who stands in the way of their regaining them.

It thus seems unlikely that, had either side possessed the Middle-earth equivalent of weapons of mass destruction, that they would have seen any reason not to use them immediately and indiscriminately, regardless of any collateral damage. The problem (for the elves) is, that this ultimately works towards Morgoth's purpose of the destruction of Arda. Tolkien says that it was for this reason (the collateral damage) that the Valar were unwilling to immediately attack Morgoth when he returned to Middle-earth. Instead they waited 600 years, for Morgoth to expend most of his power fighting the elves. Even so, the War of Wrath caused the destruction of most of Beleriand.

[WarBringer]

That's true, that statement regarding Thingol was on oversight on my part

[Felagund]

It is my humble contention that Fëanor could have taken Morgoth in single combat. He was the mightiest of all the Children of Eru Illuvatar, he still had the light of Aman in his eyes, he way fey, for he had grief and anger in equal measure, and his sword would have been much sharper than Fingolfin's. Speaking of which, Fingolfin was no where near as mighty as Fëanor, yet he sorely wounded Morgoth in single combat. Plus the light of the Trees had had time to dim in his eyes before their battle, and nor did he have the UTTER MADNESS that consumed Fëanor. The only reason Gothmog got Fëanor at all is because he was alone and surrounded, and I quote

"Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin." -The Silmarillion, pg. 107

So you must assume Fëanor was fighting MULTIPLE Balrogs, alone, and unaided, and nor was he particularly bothered by all this until Gothmog got in a cheap shot. I definitely think Fëanor could have been the doom of Morgoth, though what he would do afterwards with the Silmarils in hand is anybody's guess.

[WarBringer]

You know, Felagund, at first I could not believe what I was reading, that any elf could defeat a Vala. But I have to admit, your argument did sway me some. Fingolfin was not the equal of Feanor and yet gravely wounded Morgoth, giving him a permanent limp and making him fear combat. There was a chance, although I still don't know if I believe it, that Feanor could have slain Morgoth, considering his keen sword, his recent departure of Valinor, and his rage. Most convincing was your "multiple balrog" argument. Feanor held his own, so it is interesting what would have happened had Morgoth faced Feanor.

[mormegil]

I is said that Tuor killed 5 Balrog's himself. So I guess while it's very impressive to take on multiple balrogs it's not unheard of. While Tuor had some with him it is said also that Feanor had some as well.

"Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him."

Granted Tuor probably had more but Morgoth is no balrog. Even multiple balrogs would be less a challenge than Morgoth.

However, we need to consider if it is actually possible to slay Morgoth. There may be some previous post on it but I haven't been able to find it. Anyway while I think it is possible to rob him of his body he wouldn't be killed in the traditional sense.

Lastly, how would Feanor arrived at morgoth. The only way Fingolfin arrived was in his wrath the servants of Morgoth thought him to be Orome. Could there ever have been combat between the two?