Images of Paradise: comparisons - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 03-19-2005, 01:49 PM

It suddenly hit me, thinking about a couple stories I love, how similar are Tolkien's "Niggle's Parish" in Leaf by Niggle, and C.S. Lewis's paradise in The Great Divorce.

The obvious similarities are the scenery, but does it go deeper than that? If so, how?

What important differences are there between the two?

Are there other stories in western literature that have a Paradise that could also be included in this thread? The Divine Comedy? Others?

Lathriel · 03-19-2005, 02:39 PM

Actually the Ivory Tower from the Neverending Story comes to mind. It compares to Gondor although the number of magical creatures is higher. It seems to be a great city and nobody seems to be in great need whne they are there. Also the description of the gardens also remind me of a paradise. However this is also a white city just like Gondor. Gondor was also close to a paradise to its inhabitants untill the war of the ring.

littlemanpoet · 03-20-2005, 04:13 PM

I've never read The Neverending Story; it seems like it might be a little long.....

Sorry, bad pun.

Anyway, I was struck by a few particular similarities between Niggle's Parish and the plain that leads to the Mountains in The Great Divorce.

There is the effect of distance. What does distance say about paradise? It seems like it's associated with desire somehow, but Niggle had a kind of numinous experience from just perceiving distance. In mundane life, distant things are magical to us, and so we close the distance to get near them, but when we have gotten to them, they have lost their magic; Niggle's experience is that distant things retain their magic even in proximity. What does that mean?

The Tree in JRRT and the people from the Mountains in CSL are depicted as having a wholeness, which is very much at odds with the way they are remembered. The Tree in JRRT is unfinished and sketchy, but in Niggle's Parish it is all there as Niggle imagined it, but even better. The people in CSL are whole whereas, to listen to the ghosts who have just arrived on the bus, they were failures, sinners, murderers, and so forth. They're transformed, which in most cases comes as a disgusting shock and scandal to the ghosts.

How does Neverending Story compare? Or other stories of paradise?

mark12_30 · 03-20-2005, 06:52 PM

I really want this thread to take off-- but I have nothing to add right now! Except, is there a reason why you are leaving Valinor out of the comparisons? Just curious...

littlemanpoet · 03-20-2005, 08:11 PM

I wanted to start with Niggle's Parish in Leaf by Niggle and the plain before the Mountains in The Great Divorce because those were the two that seemed to bear the greatest similarity; which gets me wondering which was written first and who influenced whom, if that happened at all.

Now that I think about it, there is a second reason for leaving Valinor out, that must have been at a subconscious level for me at first. It's that LBN and TGD are not mythical per sé, but more allegorical, though not completely. They are both stories primarily about dying and going to heaven (or not). By contrast, wheras that theme can be found in both LotR and The Chronicles of Narnia, it is one among many, however important. The stories, LBN and TGD, are extrapolations on our own experience of life rather than of a Narnia which is in another world, or a Middle Earth lost in the deeps of time.

That said, a comparison of Valinor may yield some answers to the questions I've raised so far. Differences between them may be more helpful to our understanding than the similarities.

I'm also interested in the end of Danté's Purgatorio, particularly the top of the Mountain of Purgatory, which is depicted as a lush paradise through which flows the River Lethe (spelling?), and is revealed as Eden. It has been too long since I read it, and I'll have to get back to it for the sake of this thread, but it came to mind as soon as I tried to think of other comparisons besides the original two.

Shelob · 03-20-2005, 08:43 PM

Like mark12_30 I want to see this continued but have little to add now...I would make these few, quick, points though...

A) Though I can't recall all of The Neverending Story right now elements of it most certainly relate somehow to the idea of 'paradise'...Once I have more time I'll relook at that book though...

B) littlemanpoet, you suggested that distance has something to do with desire which has something to do with 'paradise'...the only other possibility that I can think of right now would be that distance is representative of 'the unknown' and that the innate human (or what-have-you) desire to find and understand 'the unknown' (the most famous example would be that of Eve in the garden of Eden) The only problem I can see with this idea is that in every example I can think of (the one of Eve and two others from Greek Mythology) the person who gets 'the unknown' loses something...Eve lost Eden... Orpheus lost his love Eurydice...actually, upon thinking on it, I believe the character in The Neverending Story lost all sense of who he was, for a while at least, while after some seemingly unattainable goal...

C) This may not be the best fitting but has anyone read Yevgeny Zamyatin's book We? I mention it only because littlemanpoet said "The stories...are extrapolations on our own experience of life" which made me think of dystopia novels, which made me consider this one. Out of all the Dystopia novels I considered this one because I was just thinking of H.G. Wells book The First Men in the Moon on the basis that there the moon's surface was like a pardisical garden reborn every morning and dying each night. This book (We) flows from that idea because in it the regimental civilization (that which lends it it's place amonst dystopia novels) is contrasted to the 'green wall' (Free Nature). As a dystopia novel this story is a (somewhat negative) extrapolation of real life which holds an element of 'paradise', beyond the green wall the people lived free and happy (and, as above, it was seemingly unattainable)...unfortunately this being a dystopia novel the narator has his imagination wiped and becomes completely, heart and soul, irreversibly and forever a member of the regimental civilization.

Well, that is definitely more than I intended to write...and definitly only almost fitting, sorry about that...hope it helps (for some definition of 'helps')

03-19-2005, 01:49 PM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Images of Paradise: comparisons It suddenly hit me, thinking about a couple stories I love, how similar are Tolkien's "Niggle's Parish" in Leaf by Niggle, and C.S. Lewis's paradise in The Great Divorce. The obvious similarities are the scenery, but does it go deeper than that? If so, how? What important differences are there between the two? Are there other stories in western literature that have a Paradise that could also be included in this thread? The Divine Comedy? Others?

03-19-2005, 02:39 PM	#2
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	Actually the Ivory Tower from the Neverending Story comes to mind. It compares to Gondor although the number of magical creatures is higher. It seems to be a great city and nobody seems to be in great need whne they are there. Also the description of the gardens also remind me of a paradise. However this is also a white city just like Gondor. Gondor was also close to a paradise to its inhabitants untill the war of the ring. __________________ Back again

03-20-2005, 04:13 PM	#3
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	distance, wholeness, transformation, I've never read The Neverending Story; it seems like it might be a little long..... Sorry, bad pun. Anyway, I was struck by a few particular similarities between Niggle's Parish and the plain that leads to the Mountains in The Great Divorce. There is the effect of distance. What does distance say about paradise? It seems like it's associated with desire somehow, but Niggle had a kind of numinous experience from just perceiving distance. In mundane life, distant things are magical to us, and so we close the distance to get near them, but when we have gotten to them, they have lost their magic; Niggle's experience is that distant things retain their magic even in proximity. What does that mean? The Tree in JRRT and the people from the Mountains in CSL are depicted as having a wholeness, which is very much at odds with the way they are remembered. The Tree in JRRT is unfinished and sketchy, but in Niggle's Parish it is all there as Niggle imagined it, but even better. The people in CSL are whole whereas, to listen to the ghosts who have just arrived on the bus, they were failures, sinners, murderers, and so forth. They're transformed, which in most cases comes as a disgusting shock and scandal to the ghosts. How does Neverending Story compare? Or other stories of paradise?

03-20-2005, 06:52 PM	#4
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	I really want this thread to take off-- but I have nothing to add right now! Except, is there a reason why you are leaving Valinor out of the comparisons? Just curious... __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-20-2005, 08:11 PM	#5
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	why not Valinor, so far? I wanted to start with Niggle's Parish in Leaf by Niggle and the plain before the Mountains in The Great Divorce because those were the two that seemed to bear the greatest similarity; which gets me wondering which was written first and who influenced whom, if that happened at all. Now that I think about it, there is a second reason for leaving Valinor out, that must have been at a subconscious level for me at first. It's that LBN and TGD are not mythical per sé, but more allegorical, though not completely. They are both stories primarily about dying and going to heaven (or not). By contrast, wheras that theme can be found in both LotR and The Chronicles of Narnia, it is one among many, however important. The stories, LBN and TGD, are extrapolations on our own experience of life rather than of a Narnia which is in another world, or a Middle Earth lost in the deeps of time. That said, a comparison of Valinor may yield some answers to the questions I've raised so far. Differences between them may be more helpful to our understanding than the similarities. I'm also interested in the end of Danté's Purgatorio, particularly the top of the Mountain of Purgatory, which is depicted as a lush paradise through which flows the River Lethe (spelling?), and is revealed as Eden. It has been too long since I read it, and I'll have to get back to it for the sake of this thread, but it came to mind as soon as I tried to think of other comparisons besides the original two.

03-20-2005, 08:43 PM	#6
Shelob Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: At the abysmal Abyss Mall. Posts: 276	Like mark12_30 I want to see this continued but have little to add now...I would make these few, quick, points though... A) Though I can't recall all of The Neverending Story right now elements of it most certainly relate somehow to the idea of 'paradise'...Once I have more time I'll relook at that book though... B) littlemanpoet, you suggested that distance has something to do with desire which has something to do with 'paradise'...the only other possibility that I can think of right now would be that distance is representative of 'the unknown' and that the innate human (or what-have-you) desire to find and understand 'the unknown' (the most famous example would be that of Eve in the garden of Eden) The only problem I can see with this idea is that in every example I can think of (the one of Eve and two others from Greek Mythology) the person who gets 'the unknown' loses something...Eve lost Eden... Orpheus lost his love Eurydice...actually, upon thinking on it, I believe the character in The Neverending Story lost all sense of who he was, for a while at least, while after some seemingly unattainable goal... C) This may not be the best fitting but has anyone read Yevgeny Zamyatin's book We? I mention it only because littlemanpoet said "The stories...are extrapolations on our own experience of life" which made me think of dystopia novels, which made me consider this one. Out of all the Dystopia novels I considered this one because I was just thinking of H.G. Wells book The First Men in the Moon on the basis that there the moon's surface was like a pardisical garden reborn every morning and dying each night. This book (We) flows from that idea because in it the regimental civilization (that which lends it it's place amonst dystopia novels) is contrasted to the 'green wall' (Free Nature). As a dystopia novel this story is a (somewhat negative) extrapolation of real life which holds an element of 'paradise', beyond the green wall the people lived free and happy (and, as above, it was seemingly unattainable)...unfortunately this being a dystopia novel the narator has his imagination wiped and becomes completely, heart and soul, irreversibly and forever a member of the regimental civilization. Well, that is definitely more than I intended to write...and definitly only almost fitting, sorry about that...hope it helps (for some definition of 'helps') __________________ A signature always reveals a man's character - and sometimes even his name ~Evan Esar. Pan for Everyone!