Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lush · 03-03-2005, 05:05 PM

Ok, so, I think that most people on this board would agree with me that the idea of the hero's descent into hell and subsequent re-emergence of it is a structure of the symbolic language of many, many cultures. Think Odysseus. Jesus. Dante.

Now, what made the older tales so compelling was the idea that there was a strong risk, of course, that the hero would not, in fact, be able to return, hence the heroic nature of the quest in general. Of course, the descent also had to have a specific purpose, usually a good one.

And then we have Aragorn and his dealings with the army of the dead, which more or less resembles the classic tale. However, from re-reading this, I understand that the incident in question takes place on the mortal plane. Or, kind of on the mortal plane. As in, they're still in Middle Earth, but in some darker dimension of it. Maybe? Maybe not. Anyone want to explain this further? Now, I'm exteremly curious about the location that Aragorn & Co. have to journey to and the way it relates to the old myths. What does this say about Tolkien's take on the myth?

Furthermore, we have the journey of Frodo and Sam into Mordor. Once again, from what I can understand, Mordor is presented as a kind of hell-on-Middle-Earth. What is Tolkien trying to say in general about hell here? And which one of the myths is it closest to? Now, in my opinion, this is more of a classical interpretation rather than a Christian one. Or a mix perhaps? When we keep Frodo and Sam's sacrifices in mind...?

And what of failure? Frodo appears to have failed at the end, to be "rescued" by Gollum who seems to have fallen in a kind of madness by the end. This is also curious, because from what I understand, the failure of a hero to return from hell is a failure of the spirit which results in madness. Yet it is precisely Gollum's fit (or semi-fit, or however we might want to call it) that allows for the Ring to be destroyed. I'm struggling to understand what this aspect of the story might mean in relation to the myths. Is there any significance there? What do you think?

Lindolirian · 03-03-2005, 05:54 PM

If you go along with the Christian view of descent, it would seem that the characters in myths are taking on something terrible so that others don't have to. The sacrifice of Jesus for the sin of the world, Luthien giving up immortality for Beren in Mandos, Beowulf killing the dragon at the cost of his own life. All of them are examples of a single person going the extra mile or "taking one for the team" so to speak.
But I think Tolkien also wanted to convey the idea that things have to get worse before they get better. (Now this isn't exactly hell, but bear with me). In the countless voyages to reach Valinor, many mariners perished and any shipwreck survivor (Voronwe) would tell you that it's hell enough. The point is that there has to be a challenge that makes success just that much sweeter, or actually worth trying. When Earendil endured the Shadowy Seas and made it to enlist the help of the Valar in the War of the Jewels, he showed that the impossible could be done and gave hope to the people of Middle-Earth. The various "hells" of Tolkien's world are most likely there (outside of their basic part in the plot) to teach a lesson to the people who go through them or the ones who benefit from their efforts.

Makar · 03-03-2005, 08:16 PM

What about the most obvious decent and return, that of Gandalf? Like in Dante he goes down and then works his way up and when he comes back he is transformed.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 03-03-2005, 08:27 PM

There's one thing missing from the descents into "hell" in LotR, though, and that's the hero's meeting with some now-dead heroic-yet-problematic figure from the past. Odysseus discovers Achilles in Hades (and his mother), Dante goes down there with Virgil and meets up with any number of heroic figures from the past (along with other disreputables, of course). So in addition to the threat of failure there is the promise of meeting with someone who can give useful guidance. A 'fallen' hero.

That doesn't happen in Tolkien's tale, so I'm curious about this absence

Shelob · 03-03-2005, 09:38 PM

Not always Fordim, Perhaps 'tis true that in longer tales the hero meets with a "now-dead heroic-yet-problematic figure from the past" but it's not always so in shorter tales.

Orpheus for one descends into hell (Hades for him though) and returns without meeting any who went before...

Quote:

When Orpheus' wife, Eurydice, was killed by the bite of a serpent, he went down to the underworld to bring her back. His songs were so beautiful that Hades finally agreed to allow Eurydice to return to the world of the living. However, Orpheus had to meet one condition: he must not look back as he was conducting her to the surface. Just before the pair reached the upper world, Orpheus looked back, and Eurydice slipped back into the netherworld once again. (From Here)

I don't know how well that's applicable to Lord of the Rings...but it's still worth considering...

Another way to look at it could be that Frodo does meet a fallen hero, just one who's not died yet, and that this fallen hero is usefull...just not in terms of guidance. When one considers Gollum as the 'fallen hero' it almost works...he is from before, he's just not 'dead', and he doesn't give useful guidance but without him everything would have been for naught and Frodo would have failed...

Gurthang · 03-03-2005, 10:28 PM

You could make a push to say that Gandalf received guidance after he went down and up and died. But in this case, he had already been down and had come back, so he didn't meet anyone while he was at 'hell'. And I don't know if he met a dead hero while he was dead. Still, he did go to another world and was given counsel before returning.

03-03-2005, 05:05 PM	#1
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of... Ok, so, I think that most people on this board would agree with me that the idea of the hero's descent into hell and subsequent re-emergence of it is a structure of the symbolic language of many, many cultures. Think Odysseus. Jesus. Dante. Now, what made the older tales so compelling was the idea that there was a strong risk, of course, that the hero would not, in fact, be able to return, hence the heroic nature of the quest in general. Of course, the descent also had to have a specific purpose, usually a good one. And then we have Aragorn and his dealings with the army of the dead, which more or less resembles the classic tale. However, from re-reading this, I understand that the incident in question takes place on the mortal plane. Or, kind of on the mortal plane. As in, they're still in Middle Earth, but in some darker dimension of it. Maybe? Maybe not. Anyone want to explain this further? Now, I'm exteremly curious about the location that Aragorn & Co. have to journey to and the way it relates to the old myths. What does this say about Tolkien's take on the myth? Furthermore, we have the journey of Frodo and Sam into Mordor. Once again, from what I can understand, Mordor is presented as a kind of hell-on-Middle-Earth. What is Tolkien trying to say in general about hell here? And which one of the myths is it closest to? Now, in my opinion, this is more of a classical interpretation rather than a Christian one. Or a mix perhaps? When we keep Frodo and Sam's sacrifices in mind...? And what of failure? Frodo appears to have failed at the end, to be "rescued" by Gollum who seems to have fallen in a kind of madness by the end. This is also curious, because from what I understand, the failure of a hero to return from hell is a failure of the spirit which results in madness. Yet it is precisely Gollum's fit (or semi-fit, or however we might want to call it) that allows for the Ring to be destroyed. I'm struggling to understand what this aspect of the story might mean in relation to the myths. Is there any significance there? What do you think? __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-03-2005, 05:54 PM	#2
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	If you go along with the Christian view of descent, it would seem that the characters in myths are taking on something terrible so that others don't have to. The sacrifice of Jesus for the sin of the world, Luthien giving up immortality for Beren in Mandos, Beowulf killing the dragon at the cost of his own life. All of them are examples of a single person going the extra mile or "taking one for the team" so to speak. But I think Tolkien also wanted to convey the idea that things have to get worse before they get better. (Now this isn't exactly hell, but bear with me). In the countless voyages to reach Valinor, many mariners perished and any shipwreck survivor (Voronwe) would tell you that it's hell enough. The point is that there has to be a challenge that makes success just that much sweeter, or actually worth trying. When Earendil endured the Shadowy Seas and made it to enlist the help of the Valar in the War of the Jewels, he showed that the impossible could be done and gave hope to the people of Middle-Earth. The various "hells" of Tolkien's world are most likely there (outside of their basic part in the plot) to teach a lesson to the people who go through them or the ones who benefit from their efforts. __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

03-03-2005, 08:27 PM	#4
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	There's one thing missing from the descents into "hell" in LotR, though, and that's the hero's meeting with some now-dead heroic-yet-problematic figure from the past. Odysseus discovers Achilles in Hades (and his mother), Dante goes down there with Virgil and meets up with any number of heroic figures from the past (along with other disreputables, of course). So in addition to the threat of failure there is the promise of meeting with someone who can give useful guidance. A 'fallen' hero. That doesn't happen in Tolkien's tale, so I'm curious about this absence __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

03-03-2005, 10:28 PM	#6
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	You could make a push to say that Gandalf received guidance after he went down and up and died. But in this case, he had already been down and had come back, so he didn't meet anyone while he was at 'hell'. And I don't know if he met a dead hero while he was dead. Still, he did go to another world and was given counsel before returning. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

03-03-2005, 08:16 PM	#3
Makar Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Oklahom Posts: 44	What about the most obvious decent and return, that of Gandalf? Like in Dante he goes down and then works his way up and when he comes back he is transformed.