If they still had Gandalf... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

AragornII · 02-07-2005, 09:19 PM

How do you think the story would have been different if Gandalf had not fallen at the Bridge of Khazad-Dum?

For one thing, I don't think that Boromir would have died. Gandalf would have been there to prevent Frodo from leaving and Boromir from dying. But, then he wouldn't have become the White Wizard, and he, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli wouldn't have been at Helm's Deep. He probably would have been with Frodo, which would have changed that whole aspect of the story. And Aragorn might have gone with Boromir to Minas Tirith and then Denethor might not have gone crazy and... Whew! There's a lot. So I guess that Gandalf falling was important to how the story turned out.

What do you guys think?

Formendacil · 02-08-2005, 01:42 PM

The entire story would have been changed almost entirely... That's a little too much for me to wrap my mind around and speculate on, so I'll just look at one little part of it.

I've always wondered how Gandalf intended to get into Mordor. Obviously not by the Morannon, and just as obviously not by the way of Cirith Ungol. Therefore, it must have been by some other way. Personally, I've always been rather curious as to these other ways, for surely there is more than one.

Another thing I wonder about is how much of Fellowship would have gone on until the end. I don't think Gandalf would have sent Frodo and Sam alone, although in all likelihood he would not have gone himself. My personal conjecture is that Boromir and Aragorn would have gone on towards Gondor (possibly being diverted towards Rohan, and so saving that land), and that Legolas and Gimli would have been sent with Frodo and Sam to Mordor (with instructions on how to find their way in).

That leaves Gandalf, Merry, and Pippin. They might have gone with Boromir and Aragorn, or they might have gone elsewhere. I personally fancy elsewhere, but if not Minas Tirith, then where? Perhaps THEY would have gone to Rohan, while Aragorn and Boromir went to Minas Tirith. Except that Aragorn would not have been able to fulfill the Prophecy...

Of course, this is all idle speculation, but it IS fascinating. And one has to wonder, what would have happened to Saruman without Gandalf the White? I can see Gandalf the Grey having about the same skill against the Nazgul and the orks as Gandalf the White, but I cannot see Gandalf the Grey breaking the staff of Saruman. He wouldn't have had the authority. Yes, there are many questions....

Lolidir · 02-08-2005, 07:29 PM

i have found myself wondering this same thing as well as others. and i have been involved in some other "what if" threads. and one thing that i have been told and have given thought to is the fact that everything happpens for a reason, and everything has a purpose. even the tinyest detail has some sort of importance.

for something as big as Gandlaf dying to be changed would change the entire story. you wouldnt have Gandalf the white. the fellowship would still be together. its hard to say where the story would go because of how huge the change would be but i personally think as for Rohan it would have probably been defeated in Edoras and then at the battle of Pelanor Fields they wouldnt have been able to help, and they played a big part in that. the witch king might not have been defeated as a result of Eowyn not being there. as for Aragorn and Boromir, they would have prolly continued to Minas Tirith and gone to help hold Osgiliath and maybe over run since Gandalf wouldnt have been there to drive away the Nazgul because he was away in Mordor with Frodo. the Hobbits and Gandalf would have continued to Mordor and i have no idea how they would have gone because Gandalf prolly would have gone a totally different way. they prolly wouldnt have found Gollum and then who knows who knows if the ring would even be destroyed then, because it was an accident that it even happened in the first place. as for Legolas and Gimli its hard to say where they would have gone because if they didnt have to rescue Merry and Pippin they prolly wouldnt have gotten so close with Aragorn and might not have been willing to follow him to death.

so really its hard to say anything other than the story would be totally different.
sorry this is so long but i got started and once that heppens its hard to get me to stop.

Ruoutorin · 02-09-2005, 11:15 AM

Not to be controversial, but I don't thing the story would have changed much at all. Middle Earth seems to revolve around fate and destiny and there are characters in Middle Earth that have already seen the general outcomes of events . For instance, it was prophesized by Glorfindel that no man could kill the WitchKing. Prophacies by qualified characters in ME (such as elves) can pretty much be taken as gospel. So, IMO, the whole story is already pre-ordained. If Gandalf had not fallen in Moria, I believe that minor details may have been altered slightly, but big events such as the death of Boromir would have still taken place because it is that character's destiny to die.

aelithes · 02-09-2005, 06:06 PM

I agree with Ruoutorin that fate has a part to play in what transpires in LOTR, but it's certainly not absolute, nor does Tolkien wish us to think so; he is careful to not make his characters mere puppets to fate.

The most conspicuous and efficacious piece of evidence for this is that Frodo was in fact foreseen to fail (and fail he did) - it was precisely the compounding of various expressions of 'free will', the anti-fate (e.g., the pity of Bilbo, the pity of Frodo, etc.), that resulted in the ring's inadvertent destruction.

But to get back to the topic! Yes, the matter of still having Gandalf is definitely too big to wrap my head around. The repercussions would've been huge. I can only say that in terms of the Fellowship, it probably would have stayed together rather longer than it actually did. But as Galadriel says, the seduction of the ring would have consumed them all, and I am much more uneasy about Frodo's chance of success if he's surrounded by those who feign friendship while harbouring secret (not-so-secret) desires (Boromir, Aragorn, the rest of the Fellowship, inevitably) as opposed to those whom he is openly suspicious of (e.g., Gollum). It's an inexplicable hunch, but I just think the ring would not have made it closer to its goal than Minas Morgul, if that.

Boromir88 · 02-09-2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

it was prophesized by Glorfindel that no man could kill the WitchKing.

That is "now man would kill the witch-king," much different then "could."

As for the question, I don't know if much would have changed. If Gandalf goes along, you will still have the uruk attack, which ultimately could end the life of Boromir and the capture of the two hobbits. That means again the fellowship is faced with do they follow Merry and Pippin? If Boromir doesn't fall to the ring WITH Gandalf being there then I think Frodo is along for the ride, because he would have no "desiding force" to have him go to Mordor. Frodo knew what he had to do, he just didn't want to do it, and it took an incident like Boromir falling to madness to get Frodo to realize he had to get out of the Fellowship. If Boromir doesn't fall to the ring, then Frodo doesn't go to Mordor, he'll go with the company. With that being said. Who's to say if Gandalf is there that the same thing won't happen?

The question still will remain, Boromir wants to go to Minas Tirith, Frodo doesn't. I could see Gandalf and Aragorn in letting Frodo be the deciding factor in which way to go. So, Frodo wonders off in the wild, Boromir goes to try to sway him towards Minas Tirith, goes crazy on Frodo, Frodo realizes he has to get away, so he does. Boromir comes back says he lost Frodo, they drastically go searching for him, Boromir stumbles upon Merry and Pippin (as well as a bunch of orcs), dies, Merry and Pippin captured. :breathes:

Elentari_Elbereth · 05-04-2005, 07:42 PM

This is such an interesting thought, and one I have thought of often.

I know the Fellowship would probably not have split up as it did, and all the other events trailing from it would never have happened.
If gandalf never came to Rohan, Theoden would still be under control of Saruman, and the whole country may have been conqured... And if Aragorn never went through the Paths of the Dead, surely Gondor would be destroyed, and not to mention no help from Rohan.

My thoughts are, if the Fellowship and Gandalf stayed together and proceeded to Mordor, would they have been able to destroy the Ring before Sauron could destroy Man?
Could they travel through Mordor quicker as 9? or would it be more difficult because they could be spotted easier?

Also, would Gandalf still have became White even without dying?

mormegil · 05-05-2005, 12:12 PM

In reading all of these posts on the speculation we seem to be missing one important factor, and that is does everything happen in the same time frame?

What I mean is this--If Gandalf lived (no balrog following) they wouldn't have stayed in Lothlorien nearly as long as they did (around a month...correct?). They would have stayed to get rest and supplies but wouldn't have needed the healing from the passing of Gandalf. Therefore they would have set out sooner on their quest and that alone can change the whole dynamic.

Would they have actually encountered the orcs that captured Merry and Pippin?
Would Aragorn have come in contact with the Palantir and pit his will against Sauron, thus having Sauron wage war sooner?
If Sauron hadn't rushed his hand Faramir wouldn't have been attacked, Denethor wouldn't have attempted to burn him alive and Gondor wouldn't have been under seige at that time.

It could be asked what would happen if the fellowship had left Lothlorien earlier and were successful in destroying the ring (regardless of who actually went into Mordor) then what? Sauruman isn't much to deal with in all honesty. So that's my addition currently. Thanks for the fun topic.

Essex · 05-08-2005, 02:50 AM

if Gandalf had not fallen, the 'World of Men' would have been pretty much obliterated.

I put it to you that Gandalf would have definately followed Frodo and Sam, and that the fellowship would have beaten the forces of orcs at Parth Galen.

Therefore:

No merry and pippin starting the Ent's movement towards the destruction of Isengard.

No healing of Theoden.

No mustering of Erkendrand's forces and the Huorns at Helm's Deep

Therefoer Total annihilation of Rohan people

Therefore no Ride of the Rohirrim at Pellenor Fields

Therefore no defeat of the Witch King by Eoywn / Merry

No trip by Aragorn to the Coast to get more troops

Therefore probable wipe out of Gondor's forces

No argument regarding the Witch King's demise between the two orc hunters who would have probably tracked the hobbits down.

Fight between the orcs and the hobbits (and Gandalf)

Now, tall order here, but the orcs possibly could have won this and got the Ring, and therefore END OF STORY.

But if the hobnits and gandalf did survive, then there wouldn't be much for Frodo, Sam and Gandalf to come back to.......if they could make it back through the lava pits once Mount Doom exploded after the Ring was thrown in. No Eagles around Mordor to give them a lift.......

alatar · 05-09-2005, 12:56 PM

Assume that all Nine of the Fellowship make it out of Moria and that they decide to go to Lothlorien. Also assume that all Nine decide to leave by boat as in the book. My first question, before we would deal with the events that (might) happen at Parth Galen would be:

How many boats, and who rides with whom?

Don't think that three boats would be adequate to take on the additional load of Gandalf. I think that four would be necessary.

Do Sam and Frodo still ride with Aragorn, or does Frodo and Sam pair up with Gandalf?

Aragorn and Boromir in one boat would be overkill, and we wouldn't want to stifle the budding relationship between Elf and Dwarf, and so I would propose that Aragorn would have Merry or Pippin and Boromir whichever one wasn't in Aragorn's boat.

Anyway, I'd have it as:

Boat 1 - F, S, G
Boat 2 - A, P
Boat 3 - B, M
Boat 4 - L, G

Would this affect how Boromir responds when Merry and Pippin are attacked at Parth Galen as he would then have 50% less exposure to the twain?

And would Aragorn, not required to be the leader, feel more disposed to going to Gondor and so buddy up a bit with Boromir?

As I have previously stated, one could do some mental gymnastics and work out a solution by which the events after Parth Galen all happen exactly as they do in the original story (in brief, have the Balrog accompany some Moria orcs and he and Gandalf take a dive over the Rauros falls).

My other questions regarding the surviving Gandalf would be, like mormegil, how long would the Fellowship stay in Lothlorien and also would Gandalf receive a gift?

Sorry for the unorderedness of the post.

P.S. Essex, haven't seen you in a while; glad you're back.

mormegil · 05-09-2005, 02:39 PM

I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf.

I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks.

I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply.

Gandalf_the _white · 10-16-2005, 04:03 AM

sorry if this is off topic but i always wondered wat would happen if Faramir had gone to Rivendell instead of Boromir? He wouldn't have been tempted by the ring and might of survived but then wat would Boromir have done back in Minas Tirith? Would he have protected Osgilliath like Faramir did?

Gothmog · 10-16-2005, 04:13 AM

Gandalf: This might interest you -->Was Boromir a mistake?

02-07-2005, 09:19 PM	#1
AragornII Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Concluding negotiations Posts: 103	If they still had Gandalf... How do you think the story would have been different if Gandalf had not fallen at the Bridge of Khazad-Dum? For one thing, I don't think that Boromir would have died. Gandalf would have been there to prevent Frodo from leaving and Boromir from dying. But, then he wouldn't have become the White Wizard, and he, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli wouldn't have been at Helm's Deep. He probably would have been with Frodo, which would have changed that whole aspect of the story. And Aragorn might have gone with Boromir to Minas Tirith and then Denethor might not have gone crazy and... Whew! There's a lot. So I guess that Gandalf falling was important to how the story turned out. What do you guys think? __________________ From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken; The crownless again shall be king.

02-08-2005, 01:42 PM	#2
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,326	The entire story would have been changed almost entirely... That's a little too much for me to wrap my mind around and speculate on, so I'll just look at one little part of it. I've always wondered how Gandalf intended to get into Mordor. Obviously not by the Morannon, and just as obviously not by the way of Cirith Ungol. Therefore, it must have been by some other way. Personally, I've always been rather curious as to these other ways, for surely there is more than one. Another thing I wonder about is how much of Fellowship would have gone on until the end. I don't think Gandalf would have sent Frodo and Sam alone, although in all likelihood he would not have gone himself. My personal conjecture is that Boromir and Aragorn would have gone on towards Gondor (possibly being diverted towards Rohan, and so saving that land), and that Legolas and Gimli would have been sent with Frodo and Sam to Mordor (with instructions on how to find their way in). That leaves Gandalf, Merry, and Pippin. They might have gone with Boromir and Aragorn, or they might have gone elsewhere. I personally fancy elsewhere, but if not Minas Tirith, then where? Perhaps THEY would have gone to Rohan, while Aragorn and Boromir went to Minas Tirith. Except that Aragorn would not have been able to fulfill the Prophecy... Of course, this is all idle speculation, but it IS fascinating. And one has to wonder, what would have happened to Saruman without Gandalf the White? I can see Gandalf the Grey having about the same skill against the Nazgul and the orks as Gandalf the White, but I cannot see Gandalf the Grey breaking the staff of Saruman. He wouldn't have had the authority. Yes, there are many questions.... __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

02-08-2005, 07:29 PM	#3
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	Every thing happens for a reason. i have found myself wondering this same thing as well as others. and i have been involved in some other "what if" threads. and one thing that i have been told and have given thought to is the fact that everything happpens for a reason, and everything has a purpose. even the tinyest detail has some sort of importance. for something as big as Gandlaf dying to be changed would change the entire story. you wouldnt have Gandalf the white. the fellowship would still be together. its hard to say where the story would go because of how huge the change would be but i personally think as for Rohan it would have probably been defeated in Edoras and then at the battle of Pelanor Fields they wouldnt have been able to help, and they played a big part in that. the witch king might not have been defeated as a result of Eowyn not being there. as for Aragorn and Boromir, they would have prolly continued to Minas Tirith and gone to help hold Osgiliath and maybe over run since Gandalf wouldnt have been there to drive away the Nazgul because he was away in Mordor with Frodo. the Hobbits and Gandalf would have continued to Mordor and i have no idea how they would have gone because Gandalf prolly would have gone a totally different way. they prolly wouldnt have found Gollum and then who knows who knows if the ring would even be destroyed then, because it was an accident that it even happened in the first place. as for Legolas and Gimli its hard to say where they would have gone because if they didnt have to rescue Merry and Pippin they prolly wouldnt have gotten so close with Aragorn and might not have been willing to follow him to death. so really its hard to say anything other than the story would be totally different. sorry this is so long but i got started and once that heppens its hard to get me to stop. __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"

02-09-2005, 06:06 PM	#5
aelithes Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 19	I agree with Ruoutorin that fate has a part to play in what transpires in LOTR, but it's certainly not absolute, nor does Tolkien wish us to think so; he is careful to not make his characters mere puppets to fate. The most conspicuous and efficacious piece of evidence for this is that Frodo was in fact foreseen to fail (and fail he did) - it was precisely the compounding of various expressions of 'free will', the anti-fate (e.g., the pity of Bilbo, the pity of Frodo, etc.), that resulted in the ring's inadvertent destruction. But to get back to the topic! Yes, the matter of still having Gandalf is definitely too big to wrap my head around. The repercussions would've been huge. I can only say that in terms of the Fellowship, it probably would have stayed together rather longer than it actually did. But as Galadriel says, the seduction of the ring would have consumed them all, and I am much more uneasy about Frodo's chance of success if he's surrounded by those who feign friendship while harbouring secret (not-so-secret) desires (Boromir, Aragorn, the rest of the Fellowship, inevitably) as opposed to those whom he is openly suspicious of (e.g., Gollum). It's an inexplicable hunch, but I just think the ring would not have made it closer to its goal than Minas Morgul, if that. __________________ Caelum videre iussit et erectos ad sidera tollere vultus.

05-04-2005, 07:42 PM	#7
Elentari_Elbereth Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2005 Location: North Carolina (moving to Calif.) Posts: 24	This is such an interesting thought, and one I have thought of often. I know the Fellowship would probably not have split up as it did, and all the other events trailing from it would never have happened. If gandalf never came to Rohan, Theoden would still be under control of Saruman, and the whole country may have been conqured... And if Aragorn never went through the Paths of the Dead, surely Gondor would be destroyed, and not to mention no help from Rohan. My thoughts are, if the Fellowship and Gandalf stayed together and proceeded to Mordor, would they have been able to destroy the Ring before Sauron could destroy Man? Could they travel through Mordor quicker as 9? or would it be more difficult because they could be spotted easier? Also, would Gandalf still have became White even without dying? __________________ Who shall see a white ship leave the last shore, the pale phantoms in her cold bosom Like gulls wailing? ...Who shall see the last evening?

02-09-2005, 11:15 AM	#4
Ruoutorin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 16	Not to be controversial, but I don't thing the story would have changed much at all. Middle Earth seems to revolve around fate and destiny and there are characters in Middle Earth that have already seen the general outcomes of events . For instance, it was prophesized by Glorfindel that no man could kill the WitchKing. Prophacies by qualified characters in ME (such as elves) can pretty much be taken as gospel. So, IMO, the whole story is already pre-ordained. If Gandalf had not fallen in Moria, I believe that minor details may have been altered slightly, but big events such as the death of Boromir would have still taken place because it is that character's destiny to die.

05-05-2005, 12:12 PM	#8
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,648	A new thought In reading all of these posts on the speculation we seem to be missing one important factor, and that is does everything happen in the same time frame? What I mean is this--If Gandalf lived (no balrog following) they wouldn't have stayed in Lothlorien nearly as long as they did (around a month...correct?). They would have stayed to get rest and supplies but wouldn't have needed the healing from the passing of Gandalf. Therefore they would have set out sooner on their quest and that alone can change the whole dynamic. Would they have actually encountered the orcs that captured Merry and Pippin? Would Aragorn have come in contact with the Palantir and pit his will against Sauron, thus having Sauron wage war sooner? If Sauron hadn't rushed his hand Faramir wouldn't have been attacked, Denethor wouldn't have attempted to burn him alive and Gondor wouldn't have been under seige at that time. It could be asked what would happen if the fellowship had left Lothlorien earlier and were successful in destroying the ring (regardless of who actually went into Mordor) then what? Sauruman isn't much to deal with in all honesty. So that's my addition currently. Thanks for the fun topic. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” Last edited by mormegil; 05-05-2005 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Addition for clarity

05-08-2005, 02:50 AM	#9
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	if Gandalf had not fallen, the 'World of Men' would have been pretty much obliterated. I put it to you that Gandalf would have definately followed Frodo and Sam, and that the fellowship would have beaten the forces of orcs at Parth Galen. Therefore: No merry and pippin starting the Ent's movement towards the destruction of Isengard. No healing of Theoden. No mustering of Erkendrand's forces and the Huorns at Helm's Deep Therefoer Total annihilation of Rohan people Therefore no Ride of the Rohirrim at Pellenor Fields Therefore no defeat of the Witch King by Eoywn / Merry No trip by Aragorn to the Coast to get more troops Therefore probable wipe out of Gondor's forces No argument regarding the Witch King's demise between the two orc hunters who would have probably tracked the hobbits down. Fight between the orcs and the hobbits (and Gandalf) Now, tall order here, but the orcs possibly could have won this and got the Ring, and therefore END OF STORY. But if the hobnits and gandalf did survive, then there wouldn't be much for Frodo, Sam and Gandalf to come back to.......if they could make it back through the lava pits once Mount Doom exploded after the Ring was thrown in. No Eagles around Mordor to give them a lift.......

05-09-2005, 12:56 PM	#10
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Assume that all Nine of the Fellowship make it out of Moria and that they decide to go to Lothlorien. Also assume that all Nine decide to leave by boat as in the book. My first question, before we would deal with the events that (might) happen at Parth Galen would be: How many boats, and who rides with whom? Don't think that three boats would be adequate to take on the additional load of Gandalf. I think that four would be necessary. Do Sam and Frodo still ride with Aragorn, or does Frodo and Sam pair up with Gandalf? Aragorn and Boromir in one boat would be overkill, and we wouldn't want to stifle the budding relationship between Elf and Dwarf, and so I would propose that Aragorn would have Merry or Pippin and Boromir whichever one wasn't in Aragorn's boat. Anyway, I'd have it as: Boat 1 - F, S, G Boat 2 - A, P Boat 3 - B, M Boat 4 - L, G Would this affect how Boromir responds when Merry and Pippin are attacked at Parth Galen as he would then have 50% less exposure to the twain? And would Aragorn, not required to be the leader, feel more disposed to going to Gondor and so buddy up a bit with Boromir? As I have previously stated, one could do some mental gymnastics and work out a solution by which the events after Parth Galen all happen exactly as they do in the original story (in brief, have the Balrog accompany some Moria orcs and he and Gandalf take a dive over the Rauros falls). My other questions regarding the surviving Gandalf would be, like mormegil, how long would the Fellowship stay in Lothlorien and also would Gandalf receive a gift? Sorry for the unorderedness of the post. P.S. Essex, haven't seen you in a while; glad you're back.

05-09-2005, 02:39 PM	#11
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,648	I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf. I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks. I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

10-16-2005, 04:03 AM	#12
Gandalf_the _white Wight Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In crazy captions waving an angry fist at the outside world Posts: 155	sorry if this is off topic but i always wondered wat would happen if Faramir had gone to Rivendell instead of Boromir? He wouldn't have been tempted by the ring and might of survived but then wat would Boromir have done back in Minas Tirith? Would he have protected Osgilliath like Faramir did?

10-16-2005, 04:13 AM	#13
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	Gandalf: This might interest you -->Was Boromir a mistake? __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...