Saruman's Treachery

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So we all know about this ancient hatred Saruman bore towards Gandalf & this disdain was further amplified because Cirdan entrusted to him the red ring of fire instead of him. Now, being knowledgeable of this... did he betrayed Gandalf to Sauron that he was one of the keepers of the Three? And what of the White Council? Saruman has long been one of the major leaders there, so did he not also betray Elrond & Galadriel & revealed to Sauron their true identities & the location of their havens?

[Fingolfin II]

In UT, I don't think it's explicitly stated that Saruman knew Gandalf bore Narya (forgive me if I'm wrong, I don't have the books)- but it is implied. Whether he betrayed this information to Sauron I'm not sure. It's likely, but I doubt it would have made much difference either way if he did; what could he do without the One Ring? Gandalf himself revealed that he bore the Red Ring to the Balrog, though admittedly I didn't understand what he meant until the last chapter.

As for the second part of your question, it is most likely Sauron knew where the havens of Elrond and Galadriel were located, either through Saruman or by some other means. That he knew where Lorien is situated is certain, as his forces assailed the Golden Wood. Rivendell is referred to as the 'hidden valley' a few times, so while it may be hidden from enemies, I'm willing to be that Sauron knew at least the general area in which it is located. Once more, Gandalf provides us with a handy quote saying that Rivendell could not withstand Mordor and if the Ring stayed there, eventually Rivendell will be overrun. To me this implies that Sauron at least knew the general whereabouts - or even the exact location- of Rivendell, and could defeat it at the last need.

In the movie, Elrond says 'Sauron's eye is fixed on Rivendell' (I'm not sure if he says this in the book), so that seems to be a further indication that Sauron knew where Rivendell was. But then again, can you really trust PJ?

[The Saucepan Man]

Rivendell was under siege by Sauron's army for a large part of the Second Age, so I should imagine that Sauron knew pretty much where it was.

Lorien was, as FinII has said, assailed by Sauron's forces during the War of the Ring so ditto.

With regard to Rivendell at least, this knowledge pre-dated Saruman's arrival in Middle-earth.

[Lalwendë]

Like SpM I'm sure that the locations of both Lothlorien and Rivendell would have been known to Sauron. How did he find out though? It is possible that he discovered this through powers of osanwe or thought- transference, if you've not read the threads located here and here , and I wouldn't be shocked if you hadn't as they are quite long and 'deep' . Although, the Three Rings pre-date the creation of these havens, so it could be down to simple espionage.

There are a few interesting things about Saruman and the nature of his treachery. he was clearly using the Palantir for his own nefarious purposes, which led inadvertently to Sauron gaining access to his mind and being able, to a certain extent, to control Saruman. But, it is also clear that Sauron did not have full control over Saruman, and I often wonder who was tricking who? And I also wonder whether in some way his 'power' was equal to or greater than that of Sauron.

Saruman carried out some very clever double-dealing by agreeing with the White Council in driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur so he could carry out his own search for the One Ring. I think this is the essence of his treachery; that he could betray the White Council by deceiving them as to his motives and also by keeping information from them. He deceived both of those he 'served' in pursuit of his own heretical aims, which not only shows the depth of his knowledge and skill, but how far he could sink in moral terms.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It is not just about knowing where Imladris and Lorien were. Sauron was clever enough to figure out that the 'air' was different in those parts, so to speak. I reckon he guessed long ago exactly where the Elven rings were.

[Nuranar]

Gandalf's ring was Narya, the ring of fire. Nenya was Galadriel's ring, the ring of water. And Elrond's was Vilya, the ring of air, and the mightiest of the three.

~ Nuranar
blessed with the curse of perfectionism

Edit: Lalwendë, I just read your post more carefully, and I was wondering: Are these two statements related to each other, or are they separate thoughts?

...I also wonder whether in some way his 'power' was equal to or greater than that of Sauron.

Saruman carried out some very clever double-dealing...

The bit about Saruman's power possibly exceeding Sauron's caught my eye, and I wanted to know more what you thought, but since I don't think power and treachery are the same thing, I was confused. Are you saying that since Sauron didn't have full control, Saruman may have been greater? Or that Saruman's greater power is displayed in his masterful treachery? Or something else entirely that I missed?

~ an inquisitive perfectionist

[Boromir88]

I don't think Saruman would openly inform Sauron about the rings (if he knew who bore them). Now, Sauron might have gotten that info from Saruman, through the use of the palantir, but willingly, I don't think Saruman would tell Sauron.

Saruman wasn't only against the good side, he was also against Sauron. As Lal points, out he does some tricky double-dealing, and quite bold (and foolish) moves, of trying to take on both Sauron and the rest of Middle-earth.

Sauron and Saruman's relationship reminds me a lot of Hitler and Stalin.
In Stalin's case, both him and Hitler strove for total domination. They signed this pact, of sort of not really allies, but not attacking eachother either. They didn't combine forces, they simply signed this pact, saying they would leave eachother alone. Hitler, again was just using Stalin, he wanted to deal with the West first, and then he would turn on Stalin. Hitler, by getting Stalin to commit to this pact, thought he didn't have to worry about fighting on two fronts (which defeated Germany in WWI). It wasn't until Hitler made his mistake of ticking off Stalin, and foolishly believing he defeated the Western Front, which led to his downfall.

In Saruman and Sauron's case, again they weren't really allies, fighting with eachother. More of just agreed, that they both had the same enemies, and they would refrain from fighting eachother. Sauron very much like Hitler, just using Saruman for information, and not having to deal with Isengard as an enemy. He was dealing with Rivendell, and all, first, then probably planned to turn on Saruman. Again...When it comes down to it, they were both striving for total domination, and were at odds.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nuranar

The bit about Saruman's power possibly exceeding Sauron's caught my eye, and I wanted to know more what you thought, but since I don't think power and treachery are the same thing, I was confused. Are you saying that since Sauron didn't have full control, Saruman may have been greater? Or that Saruman's greater power is displayed in his masterful treachery? Or something else entirely that I missed?

I am thinking of how Saruman is able to fool both the White Council and Sauron. It is said that through the Palantir Sauron has managed to poison the thoughts of Saruman, but if he really has managed this, then surely Sauron would also realise the breadth of Saruman's knowledge about the Rings and their whereabouts? This suggests to me that Saruman's power must in some way be equal to or even stronger than that of Sauron. Of course, both use powers of deception to great advantage.

Saruman's knowledge of Sauron is welcomed by the White Council in driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur:

Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.

Saruman also deceives Gandalf and so learns something of the Ring's whereabouts. But not everything. It appears that the Istari in general have strong minds. This is what Gandalf says of Radagast and how Saruman knew he could not be drawn into treachery:

'At first I feared, as Saruman no doubt intended, that Radagast had also fallen. Yet I had caught no hint of anything wrong in his voice or in his eye at our meeting. If I had, I should never have gone to Isengard, or I should have gone more warily. So Saruman guessed, and he had concealed his mind and deceived his messenger. It would have been useless in any case to try and win over the honest Radagast to treachery. He sought me in good faith, and so persuaded me.

'That was the undoing of Saruman's plot. For Radagast knew no reason why he should not do as I asked

As to the potential power inherent in the Istari - and I would include Gandalf here, along with Saruman, Elrond says the following:

Its strength... is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear.

To me, this says that despite Rings of Power or other objects, some do have an inherent power, including Saruman. And though the Ring would only ever be able to be used for ill, there is still the potential that a figure such as Saruman could overthrow Sauron with it, and usurp his place as the Dark Lord (or would he be the many-coloured Lord?).

Ultimately, I think Saruman is easily the match of Sauron in his mastery of treachery. His 'term' in Middle Earth has been shorter and so he has not been able to build up the forces to match those of Sauron, but his knowlegde and skill are a good match. Saruman's great failing lies in the fact that although he believes his 'broken' or 'many-coloured way' is a new way, there is only one 'true' way in Arda, and that is the way of Light.