Saruman's fireball - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 01-12-2005, 12:20 PM

Anyone else have a problem where in ROTK EE Saruman shoots a fireball from his staff at Gandalf? Seems that this must be a newly acquired talent for Saruman, as it would have been quite helpful against those marauding Ents hours earlier.

And to think that everyone feared his voice.

Snorri Swifthammer · 01-12-2005, 12:25 PM

Yes, I have a big problem with that because I don't think it is something he should be able to do.

I assume that the fireball is influenced by the many times that Gandalf flings fire in the books. But I always assumed that Gandalf's fire magic was not an inherent power but was derived from his possession of the Elven Ring of Fire.

Plus fire was always Gandalf's schtick so why should Saruman be using it?

As for why Saruman didn't snipe the Ents from the rooftop, Saruman has obviously never played any first person shooters.

radagastly · 01-12-2005, 12:26 PM

I have two possible explanations that would fit in the world of these movies. When Saruman took Gandalf's first staff, he sucked the power out of it and put it into his own, making Gandalf (its true owner) the only possible target for the fireball. Or: Such outbursts require a certain amount of energy and during the Ent attack on Isengard, he was simply low on power and needed until the scene with Gandalf etc. to recharge. Neither of these explanations makes any sense to me. I choose to believe that P.J. messed up for the sake of showing off a really neat special effect.

Lolidir · 01-18-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radagastly

Or: Such outbursts require a certain amount of energy and during the Ent attack on Isengard, he was simply low on power and needed until the scene with Gandalf etc. to recharge. Neither of these explanations makes any sense to me. I choose to believe that P.J. messed up for the sake of showing off a really neat special effect.

if Sarumon were to shoot fireballs i am sure it would take a considerable amount of energy. even if it didnt take that much there were a lot of ents to shoot and just one fireball wouldnt stop them. and once the river was unblocked the fire would be basically useless. this is concerning the movie since he didnt do it in the books.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 01-19-2005, 08:35 AM

In what way would shooting a fireball use up energy? Where is the relation? If he skipped breakfast that day would it mean that he can only shoot one fireball?

Lolidir · 01-20-2005, 07:26 PM

everything takes energy. can you do stuff without eating or sleeping to replenish your energy? i dont think so. like i said it might not take a lot but the number of ents and the number of fireballs it would take to finish each one would take a considerable amount.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 01-21-2005, 06:04 AM

But it's magic.

Snorri Swifthammer · 01-12-2005, 12:29 PM

Narya! That's the name of the ring that I couldn't remember!

The Only Real Estel · 01-12-2005, 01:19 PM

I don't think Jackson 'messed up' at all. He most likely knew that the book never mentioned Saruman shooting fireballs (although it also never mentioned that he couldn't, that I remember) but decided to go ahead & have his movie version of Saruman be able to do that. In light of many of Jackson's other changes, this one strikes me as a rather slight & understandable change, as the 'non-book reading' audience would only assume having powers (not just vocal ones) to be a normal trait for a wizard. As for me, I have no real problem with it, I see no reason why it would violate any of Tolkien's set-in-stone writings (feel free to prove me wrong, though) and, as I said before, it seems like a rather minor change to me.

alatar · 01-12-2005, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Only Real Estel

as I said before, it seems like a rather minor change to me.

Agreed. Compared to some of the PJ changes, this one is in the minor category.

I still think that it is out of character for Saruman. His voice is used to summon a storm and lightning in FOTR, and though he and Gandalf fought with their staffs, he still spoke.

So why did PJ have it in the movie? Obviously it showed that Gandalf was stronger now than Saruman, but I think that it was a poor way of showing it. Weta probably was all for it.

Boromir88 · 01-12-2005, 02:04 PM

This is a rather minor change, but one comment...

Quote:

as the 'non-book reading' audience would only assume having powers (not just vocal ones) to be a normal trait for a wizard.

The only problem I have with this, is then people asking, why didn't Saruman shoot up the ents, or why didn't Gandalf shoot light rays out of his staff against the orcs? He did it before why not now?

Lolidir · 01-12-2005, 08:17 PM

that is a good question.

in the book he comes out and starts to talk, use his voice to cast a spell, and if im not mistaken, althoug i might be so feel free to let me know, Theoden is affected by it at first and then over comes it as he did in the movie. so that part is correct. in the book Sarumon sees that he has no power left and retreats into Orthanc and goes on to end everything in the shire. (for those of you who have no idea what i am talking about, its the end of the book RTOK. it good so go read it.) PJ decided not to put that in the movie so he had to show the end of Sarumon some how. he also had to show that he had lost his power over Gandalf. retreating into the tower would have done nothing to help in showing the end of him. by firing the fire ball at Gandalf and him reflecting it or what ever shows the Sarumon no longer had any power over him. and as for how he was shot down that just is how PJ chose to end Sarumon.

as it has been said before this just a minor change.

01-12-2005, 12:20 PM	#1
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Saruman's fireball Anyone else have a problem where in ROTK EE Saruman shoots a fireball from his staff at Gandalf? Seems that this must be a newly acquired talent for Saruman, as it would have been quite helpful against those marauding Ents hours earlier. And to think that everyone feared his voice.

01-12-2005, 12:26 PM	#3
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	I have two possible explanations that would fit in the world of these movies. When Saruman took Gandalf's first staff, he sucked the power out of it and put it into his own, making Gandalf (its true owner) the only possible target for the fireball. Or: Such outbursts require a certain amount of energy and during the Ent attack on Isengard, he was simply low on power and needed until the scene with Gandalf etc. to recharge. Neither of these explanations makes any sense to me. I choose to believe that P.J. messed up for the sake of showing off a really neat special effect. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

01-19-2005, 08:35 AM	#5
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	In what way would shooting a fireball use up energy? Where is the relation? If he skipped breakfast that day would it mean that he can only shoot one fireball? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

01-20-2005, 07:26 PM	#6
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	everything takes energy. can you do stuff without eating or sleeping to replenish your energy? i dont think so. like i said it might not take a lot but the number of ents and the number of fireballs it would take to finish each one would take a considerable amount. __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"

01-21-2005, 06:04 AM	#7
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	But it's magic. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

01-12-2005, 12:25 PM	#2
Snorri Swifthammer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Erebor Posts: 49	Yes, I have a big problem with that because I don't think it is something he should be able to do. I assume that the fireball is influenced by the many times that Gandalf flings fire in the books. But I always assumed that Gandalf's fire magic was not an inherent power but was derived from his possession of the Elven Ring of Fire. Plus fire was always Gandalf's schtick so why should Saruman be using it? As for why Saruman didn't snipe the Ents from the rooftop, Saruman has obviously never played any first person shooters.

01-12-2005, 12:29 PM	#8
Snorri Swifthammer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Erebor Posts: 49	Narya! That's the name of the ring that I couldn't remember!

01-12-2005, 01:19 PM	#9
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	I don't think Jackson 'messed up' at all. He most likely knew that the book never mentioned Saruman shooting fireballs (although it also never mentioned that he couldn't, that I remember) but decided to go ahead & have his movie version of Saruman be able to do that. In light of many of Jackson's other changes, this one strikes me as a rather slight & understandable change, as the 'non-book reading' audience would only assume having powers (not just vocal ones) to be a normal trait for a wizard. As for me, I have no real problem with it, I see no reason why it would violate any of Tolkien's set-in-stone writings (feel free to prove me wrong, though) and, as I said before, it seems like a rather minor change to me.

01-12-2005, 08:17 PM	#12
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	that is a good question. in the book he comes out and starts to talk, use his voice to cast a spell, and if im not mistaken, althoug i might be so feel free to let me know, Theoden is affected by it at first and then over comes it as he did in the movie. so that part is correct. in the book Sarumon sees that he has no power left and retreats into Orthanc and goes on to end everything in the shire. (for those of you who have no idea what i am talking about, its the end of the book RTOK. it good so go read it.) PJ decided not to put that in the movie so he had to show the end of Sarumon some how. he also had to show that he had lost his power over Gandalf. retreating into the tower would have done nothing to help in showing the end of him. by firing the fire ball at Gandalf and him reflecting it or what ever shows the Sarumon no longer had any power over him. and as for how he was shot down that just is how PJ chose to end Sarumon. as it has been said before this just a minor change. __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"