Boldogs, Gothmogs and Sauron's New Clothes

[Petty Dwarf]

Two things leading up to this thread: I was reading through the orc material in Myths Transformed and the discussion on the Ring's part in Sauron's several re-embodiments that was taking place in Rings of Power & Osanwe-Kenta.

It becomes a huge problem to assert validity with the texts, especially for some of the short working notes in Myths Transformed. My preference is to defer to the most recent and more polished parts whether internal or external to the story. So this from the Orcs section of Quendi and Eldar carries lots of weight

For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.*

*Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs.

Christopher goes on to mention the only times the name Boldog was used was in the Lay of Leithian and Quenta as the name for an orc-captain who lead a raid into Doriath. Fair enough. Maybe Tolkien intended to write him in at later times, put Quendi and Eldar aside and forgot.

But I have a feeling he meant for Boldog to be applied in the latter sense: as a class-name for Orkish Úmaiar. It seems clear from the piece above that being killed is hardly an end for certain Úmaiar, and in doing so it diminishes them. So considering this, are there any possible Boldog candidates out there? There aren't many. One name from older legends seems to intrude into later ones: Gothmog. Could a Balrog become a Boldog?

There is no textual evidence the second Gothmog was the same as the first, or that he was a Boldog, or that he was an orc, or a Ring-wraith either. So the floor is open to suggestions.

It seems if there were any Úmaiar powerful enough to rehouse themselves Balrogs would have been able to do it. Of course it would take very long, much longer than Sauron took to rehouse himself, but he had the Ring. That makes his case special. I doubt Sauron would have died the same death as Thû had the revision of the Lay of Leithian continued. It's more than likely that the first time Sauron died was in the Downfall.

[Formendacil]

How about we do as Tolkien hints we might, and use the term "Boldog" to refer to a very minor Úmaiar, one that is below Sauron, below Gothmog and the other Balrogs, and certainly WAY below their mutual master, Melkor-Morgoth? In other words, let's use it as generic term for the fourth tier of Ainur-gone-bad.

The First Tier is Melkor-Morgoth, the Alpha and the Omega of Evil. Peerless in all Arda, and that's taking the good guys into account.

Then we have the Second Rank, the powerful Maiar gone bad. Sauron, Ungoliant, and maybe one or two others that we don't know about fit in here.

Then we have the Third Rank, the Balrogs. We could also put them in the Second Rank, as junior partners. Gothmog (the Balrog), after all, seems close in importance to Sauron in command of the First Age's armies.

Now we come to a less easily proven level, what I shall call 4th Tier Úmaiar. These are the ancient spirits, Ainur who came into Arda, and who formed the bulk of the "many" Maiar who were seduced to evil by Melkor, but who don't seem to have been powerful enough to individually become a menace or threat. Thuringwethil and Draugluin might well fit into this category. So also would these Ork-Captains that Tolkien writes about, these powerful, strong, extra-large-and-nasty Orks that formed the original Ork hosts and commanded and interbred with the later ones. Let us use Boldog as a generic term for any of these Ork-captains, just as Balrog may be used for any Úmaiar of the Third Rank.

Being so low on the scale of power, these Boldogs would likely have been tied to a single incarnate form (hence their ability to reproduce and mate with other proto-Orks), and would thus have definitely been "slay-able", just as the more powerful Balrogs were. Also, as with the more powerful Balrogs, these Boldogs would not have been like to reincarnate themselves.

Most therefore, would not have survived the First Age. Those who did would likely have become the great Ork-lords of the Second. What with Sauron's invasion of Eregion, attacks from Westernesse, the War of the Last Alliance, and their own infighting, it would appear doubtful that many would have survived into the Third Age.

Perhaps Gothmog II was one of the last (or THE last) of these petty-Úmaiar, these minor Ainur-gone-bad. Still quite fearsome compared with men, but certainly within a man's power to kill, and certainly able to be dominated by Sauron, and even the Witch-king.

On the same topic, is it possible that Azog of Moria was another surviving Boldog? Hence his "kingly" status. Also, his son Bolg, as at least a half-Úmaiar, would then have had enough of a headstart on the competition in what was surely a mean and deadly fight for the leadership of the Orks.

Neither Azog nor Gothmog II need have been "the" Boldog, the one who fought Beleg and the wardens on the Marchs of Doriath, but surely it is possible that one or both them were "a" Boldog, or at least Orks with a stronger strain of Boldog in their blood. A kind of Orkish Line of Elros, so to speak.




*By the way, nice to see a fellow Lego/Tolkien fan.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Also, his son Bolg, as at least a half-Úmaiar, would then have had enough of a headstart on the competition in what was surely a mean and deadly fight for the leadership of the Orks.

But if Boldogs could not reproduce, how could Azog, if he was such a being, have produced a son?

There are some who hold that Gorbag's reference, in his conversation with Shagrat, to the "bad old times" and the "Great Siege" derives from first hand experience, suggesting an extraordinary longetivity. Might they perhaps be candidate for Boldog-ship?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But if Boldogs could not reproduce, how could Azog, if he was such a being, have produced a son?

There are some who hold that Gorbag's reference, in his conversation with Shagrat, to the "bad old times" and the "Great Siege" derives from first hand experience, suggesting an extraordinary longetivity. Might they perhaps be candidate for Boldog-ship?

Did I say that they couldn't reproduce?

Let me check....

Originally Posted by Formendacil

(hence their ability to reproduce and mate with other proto-Orks),

It's not a huge point, but here is proof that I DID write it as they can reproduce, although if you get right down to it, I suppose that I am hardly qualified to say whether or not a Boldog can mate, but in light of the fact that Tolkien seems to say that when he was looking at Boldogs as Ork-captains, and the fact that their fellow Maia (although not gone bad), Melian, could mate (and with a non-Maia, at that), it would seem to be a logical assumption.

I, personally, wouldn't have picked Gorbag out as a Boldog, but maybe they are more common than I am supposing. Or perhaps, being a captain, he has Boldog-blood, and thus greater longevity?

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I like it, I think it captures the potential for evil spirits and such. Another source in all this would be the fea of dead elves who refused to go to Mandos and were corrupted and rehoused, which I increasing except as the essence of the Barrow-wrights, and other necromancy in Middle-Earth.

[The Saucepan Man]

Did I say that they couldn't reproduce?

Oops! My apologies. I misread "ability" for "inability". My only excuse is that it was the early hours for me (being on GMT).

*Saucepan skulks off to write "I must read posts properly before responding" 100 times*

I do seem to recall discussion around here at some time to the effect that fallen Ainur could not reproduce, though. Didn't Tolkien speculate that Morgoth was rendered sterile in consequence of his fallen state? I will provide a link if I can find it.

I, personally, wouldn't have picked Gorbag out as a Boldog, but maybe they are more common than I am supposing. Or perhaps, being a captain, he has Boldog-blood, and thus greater longevity?

If one holds with the idea (put forward by Tolkien in his later years, I believe) that "normal" Orcs are mere creatures without fea directed by a greater will, then the Boldog analysis would explain the rebellious tendencies exhibited by Shagrat and Gorbag in their conversation. Personally, though, I don't hold with that idea, as Orcs in general, as depicted in The Hobbit and LotR, exhibit too great a degree of sentience and independence, to my mind, to be mere automata.

Edit: Here is the quote that I was thinking of (from Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed):

Evil is fissiparous. But itself barren. Melkor could not 'beget', or have any spouse (though he attempted to ravish Arien, this was to destroy and 'distain' her, not to beget fiery offspring).

Whether this applies to Melkor alone, or also to lesser fallen Ainu, is not clear. Although the suggestion is that an evil being would be barren by virtue of its evil nature, there are clear indications elsewhere that Orcs reproduced in the manner of other races.