Do Ainur have wings? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-08-2005, 05:05 AM

"Of course not!" I can hear indignant voices and thoughts saying. And of course I know Tolkien's works well enough to realize that there is no mention of winged Ainur in any of them. And though the thread title is a tongue-in-cheek parody on the Balrog wings discussion, the topic is a serious one. Please bear with me while I explain my thoughts.

The Ainur are similar to Judaic/Christian angels, with some elements of mythological heathen gods thrown in. Angels are generally perceived as winged, though there is little (perhaps even no? I'd have to look it up to be sure...) actual mention of that in the Bible. The reason for that notion is their ability to travel quickly, going back and forth from heaven to earth, or location to location, in almost no time. As to the mythological gods, there are some who are winged, most notably Mercury/Hermes. I assume that fast, airborne transportation would be the reason for that as well.

Both Christian and mythological elements being the background for Tolkien's Ainur, why do none of them have wings? And which method of transportation do they then use? A brief skim through "The Istari" in UT did not give me any information about how they traveled; it only says that they came to Middle-earth.

I assume that Ulmo, Ossë and Uinen swam, since the waters were their domain. Tulkas "can outrun all things that go on foot", and Oromë rides a horse. Other than that, no other methods of transportation occur to me at the moment. (I do hope that those more knowledgeable in the Legendarium will add more references if they know of any.)

Now, if they originally travelled throughout Middle-earth, how? Perhaps their non-meddling policy in the latter times was due to the fact that they could not easily get 'there and back again'?

Or did they, as spirit-beings, take on their forms after arrival?

Both source information and speculative thoughts are welcome here!

mark12_30 · 01-08-2005, 05:14 AM

Cherubim: Ezekiel 1:11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out above: each had two touching another being, and two covering their bodies.

Seraphim: Isaiah 6:2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with tw he flew.

Other orders, it's hard to tell.

Interesting, Esty!

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-08-2005, 05:26 AM

Thanks for those Biblical references, mark! I didn't take the time to look them up, but if I remember correctly, those are the only definitive ones.

Gurthang · 01-08-2005, 10:08 AM

I've also thought of the Ainur being somewhat akin to angels. Although I've never pondered whether they had wings or not.

So, here's my thought. The Maiar, at least, could change their physical shapes to resemble another body. Sauron did this numerous times, and Gandalf appeared as a man. It would make sense to me then that the Ainur would also have this ability, since they are a step up from the Maiar. Now, I don't know what they would look like in their natural states, but it is entirely possible that they could have wings. Even that they would have wings if they wanted to. They could just 'become' a creature with wings.

Hope that helps a little. BTW, good references, mark.

Maédhros · 01-08-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

A brief skim through "The Istari" in UT did not give me any information about how they traveled; it only says that they came to Middle-earth.

From Unfinished Tales: The Istari

Quote:

Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good,

If Círdan saw the landings of the Istari, and the Istari were forbidden to reveal their true forms, then I would think that the Istari travelled to ME from Valinórë they had already their incarnate shapes and travelled in a Telerin ship.

Quote:

The Ainur are similar to Judaic/Christian angels, with some elements of mythological heathen gods thrown in. Angels are generally perceived as winged, though there is little (perhaps even no? I'd have to look it up to be sure...) actual mention of that in the Bible. The reason for that notion is their ability to travel quickly, going back and forth from heaven to earth, or location to location, in almost no time. As to the mythological gods, there are some who are winged, most notably Mercury/Hermes. I assume that fast, airborne transportation would be the reason for that as well.

If the Ainur are by their nature ëalars, why would they need wings to travel with wings instead of just "moving as spirits". What I concur from this, is that the Valar and the Maiar clothed themselves in certain situations to interact with the Mirröanwi, why would they need wings?
To me the question would be, why would they need for if they can travel with their "spirits". (Like Sauron did when his hröa was destroyed in Númenórë)

davem · 01-08-2005, 02:21 PM

As I recall, the reason Angels are depicted (or visualised) with wings is because they are spiritual beings & travel 'vertically' (speaking metaphorically) between Heaven & Earth.

The Valar & Maiar, having entered into the World, are bound within its circles, & are unable to leave it & return to 'Heaven' as long as it exists. Hence, no wings.

Which brings up the question of whether there are any equivalents of Angelos within the Legendarium - spiritual beings who travel between Illuvatar & the Valar/Eruhini.

This is interesting - for me at least - in that while Tolkien describes the Valar & Maiar as 'Angelic' beings & speaks of the Istari as 'incarnate Angels' they have very little in common with Biblical Angels. Basically, they are the Pagan gods by another name & exist within the world - hence, no wings, as they do not pass out of this world into a 'higher' one & back. Hermes is a different case, as his 'wings' are on his heels, not his back, & merely permit him to move around with speed, not to fly.

01-08-2005, 05:05 AM	#1
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Do Ainur have wings? "Of course not!" I can hear indignant voices and thoughts saying. And of course I know Tolkien's works well enough to realize that there is no mention of winged Ainur in any of them. And though the thread title is a tongue-in-cheek parody on the Balrog wings discussion, the topic is a serious one. Please bear with me while I explain my thoughts. The Ainur are similar to Judaic/Christian angels, with some elements of mythological heathen gods thrown in. Angels are generally perceived as winged, though there is little (perhaps even no? I'd have to look it up to be sure...) actual mention of that in the Bible. The reason for that notion is their ability to travel quickly, going back and forth from heaven to earth, or location to location, in almost no time. As to the mythological gods, there are some who are winged, most notably Mercury/Hermes. I assume that fast, airborne transportation would be the reason for that as well. Both Christian and mythological elements being the background for Tolkien's Ainur, why do none of them have wings? And which method of transportation do they then use? A brief skim through "The Istari" in UT did not give me any information about how they traveled; it only says that they came to Middle-earth. I assume that Ulmo, Ossë and Uinen swam, since the waters were their domain. Tulkas "can outrun all things that go on foot", and Oromë rides a horse. Other than that, no other methods of transportation occur to me at the moment. (I do hope that those more knowledgeable in the Legendarium will add more references if they know of any.) Now, if they originally travelled throughout Middle-earth, how? Perhaps their non-meddling policy in the latter times was due to the fact that they could not easily get 'there and back again'? Or did they, as spirit-beings, take on their forms after arrival? Both source information and speculative thoughts are welcome here! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

01-08-2005, 05:14 AM	#2
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Cherubim: Ezekiel 1:11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out above: each had two touching another being, and two covering their bodies. Seraphim: Isaiah 6:2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with tw he flew. Other orders, it's hard to tell. Interesting, Esty! __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

01-08-2005, 05:26 AM	#3
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Thanks for those Biblical references, mark! I didn't take the time to look them up, but if I remember correctly, those are the only definitive ones. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

01-08-2005, 10:08 AM	#4
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	Good idea [B]Esty[/B]! I've also thought of the Ainur being somewhat akin to angels. Although I've never pondered whether they had wings or not. So, here's my thought. The Maiar, at least, could change their physical shapes to resemble another body. Sauron did this numerous times, and Gandalf appeared as a man. It would make sense to me then that the Ainur would also have this ability, since they are a step up from the Maiar. Now, I don't know what they would look like in their natural states, but it is entirely possible that they could have wings. Even that they would have wings if they wanted to. They could just 'become' a creature with wings. Hope that helps a little. BTW, good references, mark. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

01-08-2005, 02:21 PM	#6
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	As I recall, the reason Angels are depicted (or visualised) with wings is because they are spiritual beings & travel 'vertically' (speaking metaphorically) between Heaven & Earth. The Valar & Maiar, having entered into the World, are bound within its circles, & are unable to leave it & return to 'Heaven' as long as it exists. Hence, no wings. Which brings up the question of whether there are any equivalents of Angelos within the Legendarium - spiritual beings who travel between Illuvatar & the Valar/Eruhini. This is interesting - for me at least - in that while Tolkien describes the Valar & Maiar as 'Angelic' beings & speaks of the Istari as 'incarnate Angels' they have very little in common with Biblical Angels. Basically, they are the Pagan gods by another name & exist within the world - hence, no wings, as they do not pass out of this world into a 'higher' one & back. Hermes is a different case, as his 'wings' are on his heels, not his back, & merely permit him to move around with speed, not to fly. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."