Differences in magic.

[Boromir88]

I know there have been other threads devoted to magic, but I feel that this thread can stand on it's own. If not, forgive me thou moderaters.

I stumbled upon a quote by Galadriel, which has got me thinking again (jeez that's good).

"And you?" she said turning to Sam. "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what you mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy."

First, Galadriel is unfamiliar with the mortal term "magic." As a person with these powers, I think maybe she just refers to them as her own natural ability, her powers. She doesn't have to do any spell chanting, book reading, hand waving, it's just her own power.

But she also distinquishes between her powers, and the powers of the enemy, calling it "deceitful." When we think of the Enemies (Sauron, Saruman, The Ring) all are very deceitful. They try to manipulate, control, twist you, to get you to do what they want. You might say the "lull you into a false sense of security."

Let's look at some "good" magical items. Lembas, Miruvor, Mirror of Galadriel, Elven cloaks, all benefit the person in some way. They aren't trying to be deceitful and trick you, they are trying to give you energy, guidance, camoflage...etc. It's almost as if Galadriel is saying the "the deceits of the enemy" is false, fake, where her own power is genuine and real. The "non-magical" beings categorize Galadriel's power, and Sauron's power the same, but Galadriel doesn't. I just wanted to see what others think of this.

[Mithalwen]

Here I would make a distinction between "superior" technology and magic. I think that most of these things are not regarded as magical by the elves any more than we regard the internet as magical. However Lembas and Niruvor are versions of things originally made in Valinor so it is possible that Galadriel's power was a factor in their production and it is likely she learn't much from Melian. However Galadriel clearly has power in her own right, mighty among the firstborn (cf Gandalf's reference to Glorfindel "Could he storm the road to the fire by the power that is within him?") but is inherent power the same as magic? Clearly there is a form of spell craft available in Middle Earth as can be sen by Gandalf's behaviour at the doors of Moria - and some of it is available to beings of lesser power than Galadriel (eg THranduil).

Interesting questions are raised by the Mirror of Galadriel - this may be a projection of "foresight" but it is not clear whether Galadriel would regard it as magic- though she knows that is how it will seem to the hobbits. Also the Phial - is it a "skill" or a spell that allows her to trap light in a phial of water - the closest thing to matching the capturing of the light of the trees in the Silmarils? And is the power that it gives a transmission of Galadriel's power or a distant protection given by the Valar who will not involve themselves more directly? The light of the stars is the gift of Elbereth and her name, acts as a "spell" for deflecting evil at several points in the story. I will be interested to hear what others think.

[Neithan]

She could also be talking about the difference in elven powers and those of the Maiar, but I think you are on to something. Remember Gollum who was corrupted by the power of the ring and how he reacted when they tied him with elven rope. He said it burned him, appearantly the two types of "magic" don't mix well.
Also I think that some of the things they make are not necessarily made with their power but the power does seem to remain in the items nonetheless

[Mithalwen]

True, but it may have just been an extreme loathing of the elves following his captivity rather than magic per se - lembas stuck in his throat too..

[Neithan]

O.K., so I guess the best example of the "differences in magic" that Borimir was talking about would be the elven rings verses the one ring.

[Mithalwen]

Yes, but I think the difference is in the "intention" perhaps rather than in the fact that Sauron was a Maia and Galadriel an elf ... although there is a spectrum within each category, i would think it is fair to say that most Maiar are more powerful than most elves..

[Neithan]

I wasn't necessarily talking about the differences between Elves and Maiar, when I mentioned that earlier it was just a passing thought, but more about what Boromir said about the differences. The one ring is, like he said, very deceitful. The elven rings, on the other hand, just kept back the weariness of time and gave their owners elemental powers of some kind. I don't think this is really any more "genuine" or "real" than the power of the one ring, but then again the Elves learned to make the rings from Sauron.