Lewis Carroll's Influence on Tolkien

[littlemanpoet]

In On Faerie Stories, Tolkien uses the works of Lewis Carroll as, first a negative illustration of that which is not fairy-story; and second as a positive illustration of that which is fantasy.

First, as a negative illustration of "what is a fairy-story":

It is at any rate essential to a genuine fairy-story, as distinct from the employment of this form [that of fairy-tale] for lesser or debased purposes, that it should be presented as "true". The meaning of "true" in this connexion I will consider in a moment. But since the fairy-story deals with "marvels," it cannot tolerate any frame or machinery suggesting that the whole story in which they occur is a figment or illusion. The tale itself may, of course, be so good that one can ignore the frame. or it may be successful and amusing as a dream-story. So are Lewis Carroll's [my bold] Alice stories, with their dream-frame and dream-transitions. For this (and other reasons) they are not fairy-stories.

And later, as a positive illustration of fantasy:

For creative Fantasy is founded upon the hard recognition that things are so in the world as it appears under the sun; on a recognition of fact, but not a slavery to it. So upon logic was founded the nonsense that displays itslef in the tales and rhymes of Lewis Carroll. If men could really not distinguish between frogs and men, fairy-stories about frog-kings would not have arisen.

This reveals that Tolkien distinguished between fantasy and fairy-story. All well and good.

I can't remember where I read it, but I did read that whereas Tolkien disliked the Alice stories, he enjoyed the Sylvie and Bruno stories by Lewis Carroll. I have been reading the first of the two
Sylvie and Bruno stories, frankly only because Tolkien said he liked them.

I expect that most of you have not had the opportunity to read them, which I found in The Complete Illustrated Works of Lewis Carroll, Octopus Books, Ltd., 1982. The illustrations are the famous ones (think of the Mad Hatter). Anyway, reflecting on the two quotes above, it is clear why Tolkien liked the Sylvie and Bruno stories. Sylvie, an eight or so year old girl, and her 4 year old little brother, Bruno, begin the story as human children, but they become fairies. Unlike in Alice, they are presented to the reader as real, and able to transition between fairy-land as fairies and mundane England as children, according to certain laws of fairy-nature.

Now for my discovery.

In one of the English segments of the story, the following exchange occurs. A young English gentleman who has fallen for one Lady Muriel, holds forth on the interesting (to him) fact that the smaller the animal, the more legs it has. Then this:

"The other alternative," said the Earl [Lady Muriel's father] "would be a diminuendo of repetitions of the same type. Never mind the monotony of it: let's see how it would work in other ways. Begin wtih the race of men, and the creatures they require: let us say horses, cattle, sheep, and dogs - we don't exactly require frogs and spiders, do we, Muriel?"

Lady Muriel shuddered perceptibly: it was evidently a painful subject. "We can dispense with them," she said gravely.

"Well, then we'll have a second race of men, half-a-yard high----"

"---who would have one source of exquisite enjoyment, not possessed of by ordinary men!" Arthur interrupted.

"What soure?" said the Earl.

"Why, the grandeur of scenery! Surely the grandeur of a mountain, to me, depends on its size, relative to me? Double the height of the mountain, and of course it's twice as grand. Halve myheight, and you produce the same effect."

"Happy, happy, happy Small!" Lady Muriel murmured rapturously. "None but the Short, none but the Short, none but the Short enjoy the Tall!"

Well, you can imagine what popped into my mind as soon as I read that, having been steeped for thirty-six years in the works of Tolkien! Is this (perhaps at a subconscious level) what got Tolkien thinking of "In a hole lived a Hobbit"? Pure speculation, I grant you. But here also you have an illustration of Wonder.

So here's the question, since there needs to be one for there to be a discussion, I suppose: How likely do you think it is that Tolkien got his idea for half-yard-high Hobbits from reading Sylvie and Bruno?

-LMP

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What an interesting connection, LMP! I haven't read Sylvie and Bruno yet, but I just dug out my Complete Illustrated Lewis Carroll (I'm assuming you mean the same illustrations, by John Tenniel; mine's a paperback edition though.) and will start reading them as soon as I can. Half a yard is shorter than the average Hobbit, of course, but perhaps this is part of the "leaf-mould" that went into the fertile creative soil of The Hobbit and LotR.

It's an interesting coincidence that has been noted before, that two Oxford dons should write such popular children's books!

[Bêthberry]

Very fascinating observation, lmp and a wonderful example of how to use the Letters and other of Tolkien's writing for fruitful consideration which extends our understand of him.

As with Estelyn, I also have not read the Sylvie and Bruno stories, but will immediately add them to my list of definite reads over the holidays, so I have nothing substantive to add at this time to your hypothetical.

I would, however, caution against too thoroughly applying the name of children's literature to either Carroll's work or TH, although there are valid points which can be made under that rubric. I remember a very erudite Tolkien fan on another site once engaging in the activity of crossing out all the "children's lines' in TH to discover a more serious vein running through the story.

Also, the Victorians did not, as we do, have a hard and fast division between them and some Victorian (and Edwardian) writing for children likely strikes us these days as shocking--Christina Rossetti's Goblin Market being one example. Another is Beatrice Potter's tales, which incorporate logic puzzles and conundrums for adults--or so I've been told by a colleague who teaches children's literature. And then there is J.M. Barrie's Peter Pan.

Perhaps only under the relentless pressure of a culture and literature which prioritised logic and rationality and empiricism would writers turn to find the value of fantasy and fairie in children's psyches.

[Boromir88]

lmp, a nice find, you might want to check out this thread , it discusses a lot of other Tolkien influences.

[Child of the 7th Age]

What an interesting idea! I have not read Sylvie and Bruno but am wondering if this is the story you are referring to..... Click here for text. Here is the same book for sale (new and used) on Amazon.

I assume this book is out of copyright since it was first published in 1893, just a year or so after Tolkien was born.

I do have some general thoughts on hobbits and where they came from in terms of JRRT’s mind, but will try to post later on that.

[littlemanpoet]

Yes, that's the one, Child.

Thanks for the link, Boromir88. Pretty deep stuff! I'll have to put on my snorkle suit for that one!

Thanks for the high compliment, Bethberry! I'm humbled!

By the way, Estelyn, the illustrator of Sylvie and Bruno is Harry Furniss, whereas John Tenniel illustrated Alice.

In the preface to the second half, Carroll writes his rationale for the story.. in part:

It may interest some of my readers to know the theory on which this sotry is constructed. It is an attempt to show what might possibly happen, supposing that Fairies really existed; and that they were sometimes visible to us, and we to them; and that they were sometimes able to assume human form: and supposing, also, that human beings might sometimes become conscious of what goes on in the Fairy-world -- by actual transference of their immaterial essence, such as we meet with in "Esoteric Buddhism". [reminds me of astral projection]

I have supposed a Human being to be capable of various physical states, with varying degrees of consciousness, as follows:

(a) the ordinary state, wiht no consciousness of the presence of Fairies;
(b) the "eerie" state, in which, while conscious of actual surroundings, he is also conscious of the presence of Fairies;
(c) a form of trance, in which, while unconscious of actual surroundings, and apparently asleep, he (i.e. his immaterial essence) migrates to other scenes, in the actual world, or in Fairyland, and is conscious of the persence of Fairies.

I have also supposed a Fairy to be capable of migrating from Fairyland into the actual world, and of assuming, at pleasure, a Human form; and also to be capable of various psychical states, viz.

(a) the ordinary state, with no consciousness of the presence of Human beings;
(b) a sort of "eerie" state, in which he is conscious, if in the actual world, of the presence of actual Human beings; if in Fairyland, of the presence of the immaterial essences of Human beings.

He proceeds to tabulate the passages as to what is which.

I found it rather interesting, and thought I'd share it, especially since it might not make it into an online version of the story.