Changes that you weren't bothered by. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 12-14-2004, 10:27 AM

I'm sure we all have our list of things we would have liked to have seen different in the movies (some longer then others). But what about the ones that you weren't bothered by? If there are any.

Faramir taking the Ring to Osgiliath. This has been one that has been a big complaint to a lot of purists, but I don't see the big fiasco over it. Afterall Faramir did willingly let Frodo go, right? Also, after seeing TTT EE, you get a bigger understanding of Faramir. He did it to try to impress his father, but yet he still defied his father, and let Frodo go. I don't see the big deal whether he did it in Hennuth Annun or in Osgiliath, as long as he let Frodo go willingly.

Eomer saving the day instead of Erkenbrand. I realize this takes away from some of Eomer's fighting capabilities, he was a key fighter at Helm's Deep. However, I think the audience would non-readers would have been confused on who this person was, and how did he show up? I also think it makes for a great story that the recently expelled Marshall/Nephew, comes back and saves his uncle's butt.

The Ents being "tricked" into War. I think the deciding factor in both the books and movie, for the Ents going to War, were the cut down trees. In the book Treebeard knew about them before Merry and Pippin showed up, and Merry and Pippin "roused," the Ents. In the movie Treebeard didn't know about the cut down trees until Pippin led him there, and that's what roused the Ents. Either way, it was the Hobbits, and the cut down trees, that sent to Ents to war against Saruman.

Arwen saving the hobbits instead of Glorfindel. I may get my head bashed in for this one...but, PJ has to incorporate Aragorn's soon to be wife in the story some how. If you have two full movies of Eowyn trying to "woo" Aragorn, then by the end of the last one all of a suddenly Aragorn marries this Elf lady, people would scrath their heads. You have to put Arwen in the movie somehow, besides the simple flashbacks. I wasn't too fond of her conjuring the flood, but I didn't mind her rescuing the hobbits and creating a little love tension.

Essex · 12-14-2004, 11:40 AM

and I may get shot at for this one.......

I didn't mind the Dead at the pellenor fields duck OWW! One got me.....

The main reasons behind a lot of people berating this happening in the film was the Dead 'saving the day'. Maybe to unitiated, non book film goers it looks like this, but to us lot we know that it wasn't just Aragorn and the host of Gondorian men that defeated the Armies, it was a multitude of people. The Rohirrim, the men of Minas Tirith, Prince Imrahil, Rangers, Elves (I can't remember if Elrond's sons were there, sorry if I'm wrong) and most importantly of all MERRY AND EOWYN. Without these two, I believe all the armies of Men (and women) would have failed. It was the Witch King's death that was the catalyst for Sauron's forces failure at the pellenor fields. (And also with this death they saved Middle-earth but I've already explained that on another thread)

To carry on from a film point of view, it would have taken too much time, and spoiled the flow of the movie (and the surprise factor of Aragorn turning up) by Aragorn having to thank the King of the Dead and release him before the biggest battle in the movie. It just wouldn't have worked.

And IMHO the Dead only sort of polished off the baddies anyway. You know, knocking down an elephant, running into minas tirith and killing a few stragglers. That's how I view it anyway.

PS Isn't it great in the EE the way Eowyn struggles to reach her sword as Gothmog is bearing down on her before Aragorn and Gimli finish the good looking chap off without even realising she was there.

tar-ancalime · 12-14-2004, 05:23 PM

And I'm expecting some shoes thrown at me for this:

I liked the Elves at Helm's Deep. As a matter of fact, I liked most of PJ's handling of the Rohan story in TTT (Orlando Bloom's regrettable shield-surfing notwithstanding).

First of all, I liked that everyone simply made for Helm's Deep. It's simpler than introducing Dunharrow, it keeps the principal characters together, and it doesn't really detract from the progress of the story.

Bringing in the Elves served two purposes in my opinion: first, it brought back Haldir, and in a story with this many characters it is imperative to "use" everyone you introduce. Haldir also tied the second movie to the first. The second purpose of bringing in the Elves was to show that Elves are more than pointy-eared naysayers (I'm thinking of Agent Elrond saying, "Men are weak!").

And boromir88, I'm with you about Arwen rescuing the hobbits. I like Glorfindel as much as the next person, but as I mentioned above regarding Haldir, it wouldn't have done PJ any good to introduce yet another character at that point in the story.

radagastly · 12-14-2004, 05:41 PM

I'd pretty much agree with you all(except maybe about the Ents being tricked . . .)

Anyway, I liked the fact that they adjusted the time-line to actually show Theodred's death. It really created an "event" to illuminate the assorted political and courtly relationships at Edoras in just a few brief scenes. I liked it.

I also kinda liked the Warg attack. (Duck!!!) They had to show a real threat in order to justify leaving Edoras and heading to Helm's Deep. I know that P.J. didn't care for the final look of the scene because he more or less improvised the action (most fight scenes, even small ones, are carefully choreographed) and then filled in with CGI. I guess that every now and then, I just love a good creature fight.

Morgul Queen · 12-14-2004, 10:38 PM

Yes, the Warg scene was good. It does make sense and helps non-book readers.

But Faramir taking the Ring to osgiliath...it's not so much that fact that the Ring is in Osgiliath, it's that the Nazgul are there, they know Frodo's got the Ring and is in Osgiliath, which, incidentally, is also where they are...and they don't do anything about it. The book!Nazgul and Book!Sauron would have Frodo surrounded, killed and the Ring taken before the Great Eye could Blink.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-15-2004, 09:08 AM

Well, I did not mind one jot that the Hobbits were all the same age. I thought it worked just as well.

The Only Real Estel · 12-15-2004, 07:51 PM

The Hobbit's Age- Didn't bother me at all, surprisingly enough.

Wargs- Though they are a far cry from the books description of the wargs (IMO), the new version of them didn't bother me very much.

Elves at Helm's Deep- One of the bigger changes and yet it is on this list, strange. But it seemed to fit well with the story (although I didn't think the Galadriel/Elrond telepathy scene before that fit nearly as well) & I could find no problems with it that I lost sleep over.

Wizard Fight- Though I wouldn't say it's one of my favorite parts, I justify it on much the same grounds as the elves at Helm's Deep--it fit well & wasn't horribly wrong. Now if they would've brought the fireballs, force-lightening, and bursts of magic sparks into the action...it'd be a much different story.

Eomer taking over for Erkenbrand- Pretty much the same thoughts as Boromir88's. They needed to leave out more than just a few characters & Erkenbrand had crosshairs on him (though it would've been cool to see Eomer fight in Helm's Deep

).

I'm sure I'll post more from RotK once I watch the extended version tomorrow night.

Boromir88 · 12-16-2004, 05:29 AM

Silmiel, you can post on this thread to talk about your ROTK EE experiences. You can also find out the reasons for why PJ killed Saruman in that way

.

Bungo Baggins · 12-16-2004, 08:54 AM

I also didn't mind that Arwen rode with Frodo instead of Glorfindel. I thought PJ was clever in the way he introduced her to the story. I also think that the elves at Helms Deep was a nice touch. It added excitement to the movie at a crucial moment. In the film, the batle would have resembled too many others.

Boromir88 · 12-16-2004, 09:21 AM

I'm sort of on the fence about the elves at Helm's Deep. One one side I love the scene when Haldir walks up, Theoden is stunned, and Haldir says "A great alliance once existed between elves and men, we come to honor that allegiance." On the other hand, I think it takes away from the strength of men. The Third age was the time when Men began to grow, and the other elder races begin to fade. I think if it wasn't for the Huorns (and I love how PJ included them in the EE), Helm's Deep would have fallen, but I think the Elves take away the strength of men.

Theoden had 1,000 men (including Eomer's squad), and Gamling had 1,000 men. I guess with the scenario set up of having Eomer gone, and having him come to return to save the day (which I think was a nice change), only the 1,000 from Rohan was represented. And the Elves compensate for Eomer's men. Then Eomer brings 2,000 which makes up Erkenbrand's men.

Essex · 12-16-2004, 10:04 AM

and to add to this, Cate Blanchet should have said the 'Penultimate Alliance', not the 'Last Alliance' in the Prologue of LOTR

Nimrodel_9 · 12-16-2004, 05:31 PM

Well I didn`t mind the hobbits age one bit. Forgive me, but I actually thought it better.
Arwen coming to save the hobbits instead of Glorfindel didn`t bother me much either.
I also liked when Faramir took the ring to Osgiliath. Not in the book, but I liked it.

Something I didn`t like a whole lot was Faramir`s attitude toward Frodo and Sam at first. I liked the kind Faramir better, though they straightened it out later.

12-14-2004, 10:27 AM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,518	Changes that you weren't bothered by. I'm sure we all have our list of things we would have liked to have seen different in the movies (some longer then others). But what about the ones that you weren't bothered by? If there are any. Faramir taking the Ring to Osgiliath. This has been one that has been a big complaint to a lot of purists, but I don't see the big fiasco over it. Afterall Faramir did willingly let Frodo go, right? Also, after seeing TTT EE, you get a bigger understanding of Faramir. He did it to try to impress his father, but yet he still defied his father, and let Frodo go. I don't see the big deal whether he did it in Hennuth Annun or in Osgiliath, as long as he let Frodo go willingly. Eomer saving the day instead of Erkenbrand. I realize this takes away from some of Eomer's fighting capabilities, he was a key fighter at Helm's Deep. However, I think the audience would non-readers would have been confused on who this person was, and how did he show up? I also think it makes for a great story that the recently expelled Marshall/Nephew, comes back and saves his uncle's butt. The Ents being "tricked" into War. I think the deciding factor in both the books and movie, for the Ents going to War, were the cut down trees. In the book Treebeard knew about them before Merry and Pippin showed up, and Merry and Pippin "roused," the Ents. In the movie Treebeard didn't know about the cut down trees until Pippin led him there, and that's what roused the Ents. Either way, it was the Hobbits, and the cut down trees, that sent to Ents to war against Saruman. Arwen saving the hobbits instead of Glorfindel. I may get my head bashed in for this one...but, PJ has to incorporate Aragorn's soon to be wife in the story some how. If you have two full movies of Eowyn trying to "woo" Aragorn, then by the end of the last one all of a suddenly Aragorn marries this Elf lady, people would scrath their heads. You have to put Arwen in the movie somehow, besides the simple flashbacks. I wasn't too fond of her conjuring the flood, but I didn't mind her rescuing the hobbits and creating a little love tension.

12-14-2004, 05:23 PM	#3
tar-ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: abaft the beam Posts: 303	And I'm expecting some shoes thrown at me for this: I liked the Elves at Helm's Deep. As a matter of fact, I liked most of PJ's handling of the Rohan story in TTT (Orlando Bloom's regrettable shield-surfing notwithstanding). First of all, I liked that everyone simply made for Helm's Deep. It's simpler than introducing Dunharrow, it keeps the principal characters together, and it doesn't really detract from the progress of the story. Bringing in the Elves served two purposes in my opinion: first, it brought back Haldir, and in a story with this many characters it is imperative to "use" everyone you introduce. Haldir also tied the second movie to the first. The second purpose of bringing in the Elves was to show that Elves are more than pointy-eared naysayers (I'm thinking of Agent Elrond saying, "Men are weak!"). And boromir88, I'm with you about Arwen rescuing the hobbits. I like Glorfindel as much as the next person, but as I mentioned above regarding Haldir, it wouldn't have done PJ any good to introduce yet another character at that point in the story. __________________ Having fun wolfing it to the bitter end, I see, gaur-ancalime (lmp, ww13)

12-14-2004, 05:41 PM	#4
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	I'd pretty much agree with you all(except maybe about the Ents being tricked . . .) Anyway, I liked the fact that they adjusted the time-line to actually show Theodred's death. It really created an "event" to illuminate the assorted political and courtly relationships at Edoras in just a few brief scenes. I liked it. I also kinda liked the Warg attack. (Duck!!!) They had to show a real threat in order to justify leaving Edoras and heading to Helm's Deep. I know that P.J. didn't care for the final look of the scene because he more or less improvised the action (most fight scenes, even small ones, are carefully choreographed) and then filled in with CGI. I guess that every now and then, I just love a good creature fight. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door. Last edited by radagastly; 12-14-2004 at 05:43 PM. Reason: cross-posted.

12-14-2004, 10:38 PM	#5
Morgul Queen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dontgonearthe Castle Posts: 414	Yes, the Warg scene was good. It does make sense and helps non-book readers. But Faramir taking the Ring to osgiliath...it's not so much that fact that the Ring is in Osgiliath, it's that the Nazgul are there, they know Frodo's got the Ring and is in Osgiliath, which, incidentally, is also where they are...and they don't do anything about it. The book!Nazgul and Book!Sauron would have Frodo surrounded, killed and the Ring taken before the Great Eye could Blink. __________________ Athrabeth is still doing the wave for Boromir the Disco-King Oh...and call me Morgy!

12-15-2004, 09:08 AM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Well, I did not mind one jot that the Hobbits were all the same age. I thought it worked just as well. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-14-2004, 11:40 AM	#2
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	and I may get shot at for this one....... I didn't mind the Dead at the pellenor fields duck OWW! One got me..... The main reasons behind a lot of people berating this happening in the film was the Dead 'saving the day'. Maybe to unitiated, non book film goers it looks like this, but to us lot we know that it wasn't just Aragorn and the host of Gondorian men that defeated the Armies, it was a multitude of people. The Rohirrim, the men of Minas Tirith, Prince Imrahil, Rangers, Elves (I can't remember if Elrond's sons were there, sorry if I'm wrong) and most importantly of all MERRY AND EOWYN. Without these two, I believe all the armies of Men (and women) would have failed. It was the Witch King's death that was the catalyst for Sauron's forces failure at the pellenor fields. (And also with this death they saved Middle-earth but I've already explained that on another thread) To carry on from a film point of view, it would have taken too much time, and spoiled the flow of the movie (and the surprise factor of Aragorn turning up) by Aragorn having to thank the King of the Dead and release him before the biggest battle in the movie. It just wouldn't have worked. And IMHO the Dead only sort of polished off the baddies anyway. You know, knocking down an elephant, running into minas tirith and killing a few stragglers. That's how I view it anyway. PS Isn't it great in the EE the way Eowyn struggles to reach her sword as Gothmog is bearing down on her before Aragorn and Gimli finish the good looking chap off without even realising she was there.

12-15-2004, 07:51 PM	#7
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	The Hobbit's Age- Didn't bother me at all, surprisingly enough. Wargs- Though they are a far cry from the books description of the wargs (IMO), the new version of them didn't bother me very much. Elves at Helm's Deep- One of the bigger changes and yet it is on this list, strange. But it seemed to fit well with the story (although I didn't think the Galadriel/Elrond telepathy scene before that fit nearly as well) & I could find no problems with it that I lost sleep over. Wizard Fight- Though I wouldn't say it's one of my favorite parts, I justify it on much the same grounds as the elves at Helm's Deep--it fit well & wasn't horribly wrong. Now if they would've brought the fireballs, force-lightening, and bursts of magic sparks into the action...it'd be a much different story. Eomer taking over for Erkenbrand- Pretty much the same thoughts as Boromir88's. They needed to leave out more than just a few characters & Erkenbrand had crosshairs on him (though it would've been cool to see Eomer fight in Helm's Deep ). I'm sure I'll post more from RotK once I watch the extended version tomorrow night.

12-16-2004, 05:29 AM	#8
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,518	Silmiel, you can post on this thread to talk about your ROTK EE experiences. You can also find out the reasons for why PJ killed Saruman in that way .

12-16-2004, 08:54 AM	#9
Bungo Baggins Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The shire Posts: 32	I also didn't mind that Arwen rode with Frodo instead of Glorfindel. I thought PJ was clever in the way he introduced her to the story. I also think that the elves at Helms Deep was a nice touch. It added excitement to the movie at a crucial moment. In the film, the batle would have resembled too many others. __________________ "The closer we are to danger, the farther we are from harm. It's the last thing he'll expect."

12-16-2004, 09:21 AM	#10
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,518	I'm sort of on the fence about the elves at Helm's Deep. One one side I love the scene when Haldir walks up, Theoden is stunned, and Haldir says "A great alliance once existed between elves and men, we come to honor that allegiance." On the other hand, I think it takes away from the strength of men. The Third age was the time when Men began to grow, and the other elder races begin to fade. I think if it wasn't for the Huorns (and I love how PJ included them in the EE), Helm's Deep would have fallen, but I think the Elves take away the strength of men. Theoden had 1,000 men (including Eomer's squad), and Gamling had 1,000 men. I guess with the scenario set up of having Eomer gone, and having him come to return to save the day (which I think was a nice change), only the 1,000 from Rohan was represented. And the Elves compensate for Eomer's men. Then Eomer brings 2,000 which makes up Erkenbrand's men.

12-16-2004, 10:04 AM	#11
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	and to add to this, Cate Blanchet should have said the 'Penultimate Alliance', not the 'Last Alliance' in the Prologue of LOTR

12-16-2004, 05:31 PM	#12
Nimrodel_9 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Utah Posts: 734	Well I didn`t mind the hobbits age one bit. Forgive me, but I actually thought it better. Arwen coming to save the hobbits instead of Glorfindel didn`t bother me much either. I also liked when Faramir took the ring to Osgiliath. Not in the book, but I liked it. Something I didn`t like a whole lot was Faramir`s attitude toward Frodo and Sam at first. I liked the kind Faramir better, though they straightened it out later. __________________ .:A friend is someone who reaches for your hand and touches your heart:.