Wizards' Pupils

[Elianna]

There's a quote of Denethor's in RotK of him calling Faramir a 'wizard's pupil' (meaning of course Gandalf).

Also we know that Grima was Saruman's pupil, sort of, "...Saruman said them, the teacher of Wormtongue..." (Gandalf, RotK, Houses of Healing).

Of course, these Wizard's Pupils have something else in common: Eowyn.

Think Tolkien meant to have that connection? What do you guys think of it?

[Boromir88]

Interesting observations Elianna. Another one, and probably more recognizable, Gandalf's pupil, is a good man, and wins Eowyn's heart. Where Saruman's pupil, likes Eowyn, but Eowyn despises him. I think there is a definate connection Tolkien is trying to make, and the answer is Eowyn. She falls for the good guy, and eventhough there was a time when Theoden listened to Grima's counsel, Eowyn saw right through him .

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It gets even more complicated: Aragorn is very much Gandalf's pupil (even though I don't think he is called that directly) and he not only attracts Eowyn, but also gets the girl he wants (Arwen -- remember her?).

Could it be that Gandalf 'teaches' love while Saruman 'teaches' desire? This might actually explain something of Eowyn: having been for so long under the indirect influence of Saruman (via Wormtongue and perhaps even Theoden) she has begun to learn the lesson of desire and this is what leads her toward Aragorn. It is up to that other wizard's pupil, Faramir, to teach her the lesson of love.

How would this work through (or over?) other of Gandalf's acquaintance? I think that it's pretty safe to say that Frodo learns the lesson of love from Gandalf in that he comes to show pity and mercy to Gollum, when his desire is to kill the creature. In the end, is not this at the heart of Frodo's struggle with the Ring -- the desire to have the Ring (Grima for Eowyn; Eowyn for Aragorn) versus the love of the Shire and of Sam (Aragorn for Arwen).

Perhaps I will have something more eloquent and coherent later.

[Boromir88]

Some more wonderful observations by Fordhim! Eventhough Eowyn despises Grima, it's as if a "part" of Grima rubs off on her. That thought of "desiring." Saruman teaches Grima, then Eowyn (unconsciously) follows Grima, atleast at first. She desires Aragorn, (were they for the wrong reasons? I don't know yet.) and it's only until she meets Faramir when she finds "true" love.

Interesting connection, for Aragorn is indeed Gandalf's "pupil" as well, eventhough it doesn't come out to say it. Aragorn had spent a great deal of time around Gandalf, searching for Gollum, during the Fellowship, and it never comes out to say he's Gandalf's "pupil," but he admires Gandalf greatly. Faramir, isn't around Gandalf as much, but he still admires Gandalf, Denethor see's this and calls him the "wizard's pupil." Then Eowyn falls for both of Gandalf's pupils, it's interesting how this works.

[Mithalwen]

Wasn't there something about Grima not having words for Theoden's ear alone? "What is the house of Eorl but at thatched barn.." ?

Although there is no suggestion that there were arranged dynastic marriages in the Royal Houses of Gondor and Rohan as there were in European royal houses until so very recently, Eowyn would not necessarily have a free choice of spouse. For all her admiration for the soldiers, Eowyn is sufficiently cerebral to want more from a husband than a Middle Earth version of Captain Mark Phillips, and it seems the only cerebral man in the kingdom to whom she is not a close relative is the repulsive Grima.

Had the Grima's influence persisted, with Theodred dead and Eomer estranged, it is not hard to imagine that Eowyn migh find herself in a situation where she might find it difficult to refuse Grima. This might be a part explanation for her desire to ride to battle, the aaalternative might be a fate worse than death.

Although some people feel that Eowyn "settled" for Faramir, I think it is more that Aragorn provided an escape route, and was more of an example of the type of man she needed rather than the actual one.

Faramir actively sought to learn from Gandalf though and Denethor, wise in lore himself, no doubt took that as a slight.

In the light of Fordim's comments I wonder if it is significant that Boromir, a man who delighted in warfare at the expense of marriage, tried to talk the ring out of Frodo and failed (and in a sense paid for his failure with his death), while Faramir who has no desire for the ring and lets it pass from his hands, sucessfully talks his way into Eowyn's heart. Perhaps he is trying to tell us something about healthy and unhealthy desire.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

When Faramir was younger, a lad, presumably, was when Gandalf came to Minas Tirith searching for lore and records left by Isildur, and anything else that could help him solve his dilemma in the Shire, or reinforce his hunch.

Anyway, Faramir, a young man of, say thirty, would have been ... 13 (I think that's right) ... Gandalf went to Minas Tirith 17 years before Frodo's Quest began.

And in those days, no doubt he was enamored of Gandalf and wanted to learn as much as possible, even as Boromir, who was only a few years older, was becoming a man (16 - 20 sort of age) and was learning the ways of the warrior.

Denethor was probably pretty absorbed in Boromir's becoming Chief Warden of the Tower, which is a pretty big deal. And since we know Denethor and Gandalf had a bit of a rivalry, and other than that were a lot alike in that they were wizened sorts of thinkers, it seems likely that Faramir as a kid would want somebody to teach him something, because Denethor was busy focusing on Boromir. And Gandalf seemed like a suitable teacher.

So, the fact is, he was probably very much the Wizard's pupil for a short while, and Denethor probably always begrudged both of them for it.

Wormtongue is less a pupil than an assistant, but you're absolutely right, about the love versus desire idea.

The difference is, Wormtongue was "bought" by Saruman, whereas people who chose to learn from Gandalf did it themselves, out of friendship or curiosity.

Even reading the Hobbit, you see right off the bat that while Bilbo feigned his sort of attitude of contentment and disinterest, he really did want to hear all these amazing things about the world (which is why he couldn't help but get interested and involved).

Faramir and Wormtongue ... that's kind of an interesting paradox.

They really are EXACT opposites.

Faramir is kind-hearted and wise, and doesn't desire power, and yet his counsels are totally disregarded by his lord.

Wormtongue is cold and calculating, and desires anything he can get, and his counsels very nearly took over Theoden's mind.

So really ... Eowyn may have warmed up because here was a man who was the exact opposite of Wormtongue, who she despised.

As for Aragorn ... he's inspiration. He inspired Faramir, he inspired Eowyn. He inspired Theoden, and Denethor may have complained about being supplanted, but recognized that here was a guy who was going to take control.

Even Boromir dug him.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It occurs to me that there's yet another way of thinking about this, in relation to the Shire itself.

Gandalf and Faramir love the Shire and work to protect it for the sake of that love. I realise that Faramir has never been to the Shire, but he is a Ranger (connected to those other Rangers who do protect the Shire) and he is connected with Ithilien, which is the most Shire-like land we see. He also comes to respect and admire the Hobbits, in particular Sam, and he seeks to learn about their land from them.

Saruman and Grima desire the Shire: they want its luxury goods, and then seek to consume it for their revenge.

In this respect, the Shire and Eowyn are themselves being connected to one another. Just as she is saved from the dangerous and consuming desire of Grima by the love of Faramir (thanks to the intercession of Aragorn), so too is the Shire saved from the dangerous and consuming desire of Saruman and Grima by the love of the Shirelings (thanks to the intercession of those Hobbits who have been caught up in Aragorn's story). In this way I think we can really see the Shire as the clearest example, even the most concrete, of the difference that exists between the desire that motivates Saruman (and his pupil) and the love that motivates Gandalf (and his pupil). The Shire as desired object becomes something to be owned by a single individual, and thus spoiled for all. The Shire as beloved object is owned and enjoyed by all, and is thus beautiful.

And this in turn brings me back to Eowyn: insfoar as she desires Aragorn she is following an essentially possessive and selfish desire -- she wants Aragorn for her self, so she can be free and happy, and have glory. Not bad desires, perhaps, but destructive. In the end, she moves past this desire (of and for the self) and toward a love with Faramir that allows her to think about and be part of a larger community, and to think of others: she will become the White Lady of Ithilien. . .which is, like I said, much like the Shire.

[Mithalwen]

It is interesting that you see Ithilien as the Shire - I think of Ithilien once it is in Faramir's care as a mini-Numenor. A land of gift, reward for part in struggle against a great enemy, fair but made more beautiful by the aid of elves. Faramir is so often associated with Numenor and I have a theory that his exceptional lifespan was a grace allowed him for his significant role in the downfall of Sauron. In this context, I see the relationship of Eowyn and Faramir as a positive balace to the dysfunctional one of Aldarion and Erendis which sowed the seeds of Numenor's downfall. In Ithilien, with Faramir and Eowyn, all things flourish..

It almost seems ironic that Faramir is "condemned" as a wizard's pupil, he has not learned sorcery from him but humanitarianism - the key lesson on the lines of " many who live deserve death and many who die deserve life - can you give it to them?". It is Farmir's humanity that saves the quest, sparing Gollum, letting Frodo go - in effect risking his own life by not copping out and following orders.

[Thinlómien]

Just for you, KoDG:

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

Faramir, a young man of, say thirty

36.

Boromir, only few years older

5 years older.
Just if you wanted to know.

[Halbarad]

Those examples escaped me. I stand corrected Boromir88, although I will append that only one can lead, the rest must follow, and Gandalf was the obvious choice to lead.

[Lathriel]

Interesting observation of Saruman's pupils versus Gandalf's pupils.
Another reason why they are both so different is that Saruman teaches hate. Somebody who hates too much isn't able to love and can only feel desire. That would be Grima.

Faramir is taught by a different master who teaches love. Therefore Faramir can give more to Eowyn. Grima would never be able to do that because he was never taught about that. Or its also because his soul was corrupted by Saruman. Of course Gandalf nurtured the souls of all his pupils whereas Saruman did not.