Saruman's ending (PJ's way) P.S. Spoilers!

[Boromir88]

In ROTK EE we are to see more of Saruman, all the way to his death in the Tower of Orthanc. I've heard from various sources (unfortunately, I can't find them right now but I will get that to everyone), that Grima pushes Saruman out of Orthanc and Saruman falls to his death upon his own machinery. So I ask how do you all feel about this ending? Like it? Dislike it?

As for me if PJ had included The Scouring, I would have rather seen Saruman die the way Tolkien had written. But, since he didn't, this ending of Saruman falling to his death on his own machinery I think it works well. In fact, I will go out to say, that since there is no Scouring this is the best possible way to "kill" Saruman.

As we all know, Tolkien hated "machinery," "industrialization," he thought it was the cause of war. Which, I can see what he means. But, my point is, is Saruman's death of falling to his death on his own machinery a good way of doing it? I would say yes, and is the best way of doing it (besides The Scouring) since it comes to me as symbolizing Saruman was killed by the own machines he built.

[Imladris]

The irony of justice...

I think it's a perfectly fine way to do it...very fitting. As long as Grima had something to do with it I really don't think it's that major of a tweak -- the heart is still kept in it.

[Elianna]

I like the idea of Gríma pushing him off best. More character development for him. But then there've been those pictures of Gríma pulling out his knife, and I've heard bad things about how Gríma dies....who knows what they're going to do?

[Encaitare]

I agree with Imladris and Elianna -- so long as Grima kills him, I can live with it. He's got to have that one moment of almost-but-not-quite-redemption.

POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING!!!!!!

In one of the other RotK EE threads, someone said that Legolas was going to shoot Grima... I desperately hope not.

[Imladris]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

In one of the other RotK EE threads, someone said that Legolas was going to shoot Grima... I desperately hope not.

Why? The Hobbit folk shot him in the Shire with their bows, however, Merry and Pippin didn't have bows on their journey -- it'd be weird to have them carry bows for that one scene...As far as I can see, he's the only logical choice to do it, unless you want Aragorn to?

[The Only Real Estel]

I like the idea of Gríma pushing him off best. More character development for him. But then there've been those pictures of Gríma pulling out his knife

Supposedly he pulls a knife, stabs Saruman, & then pushes him off to his spikey death. I actually like that idea a little better than him just pushing him off.

In one of the other RotK EE threads, someone said that Legolas was going to shoot Grima... I desperately hope not

What's worse is the way it happens. The arrow 'soars high above Grima's head' & then as Grima is 'laughing at the seeming inaccuracy of Legolas', it crashes down through his skull. If it becomes a death that people will laugh at when they see it, I think PJ will have failed miserably.

[gorthaur_cruel]

What's worse is the way it happens. The arrow 'soars high above Grima's head' & then as Grima is 'laughing at the seeming inaccuracy of Legolas', it crashes down through his skull. If it becomes a death that people will laugh at when they see it, I think PJ will have failed miserably.

Really? Where'd you hear that? I sure haven't heard that before...
BTW, how can you shoot an arrow all the way up to the top of Orthanc, which is presumably around 300m high? Unless Elves have EXTREME power as well as accuracy, surely it won't reach that high before coming back down.

...which reminds me. Anybody have the faintest idea why they made Saruman talk from the top of Orthanc as opposed to his balcony (as in the book)? I fail to see how his almost-whispers such as "You are all going to die" from the EE is supposed to be heard all the way down. Even his shouts shouldn't be heard easily.

[Boromir88]

I will admit Essex, your view of how the scene will be done, does sort of lighten the fact that it is Legolas who kills Grima. I still feel Legolas already gets enough credit for things he didn't do, and I still stick with Eomer's idea. You are right, we will have to wait and see in two months, :bites fingers:.

[Nimrodel_9]

I was playing LotR Trivial Pursuit with my sister last December, when we came upon the card that asks, "Who kills Grima Wormtongue?" When I discovered that it was Legolas, I was very put out. I told my friend at school, and she (being a Leggy-Lover) was over joyed to learn that her handsome prince was to be the one who kills Grima. I argued this over with her for quite some time, and she still dosen`t see why it shouldn`t be him. I knew why it shouldn`t be him, but I never really could explain to her. So, with your permission, Eomer, I shall like to steal your words, seeing how I couldn`t find them myself.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Gather round, my children, and bask in the warm glow of the only popular post I ever made!

Having said what I did though, I was always fearful that they would do the scene badly in the film. Nevertheless, I will not criticise on the basis of rumours (despite being unhappily convincing rumours).

There's no need to change the title Boromir, apparently they filmed about 5 different endings for ol' Curunir. Plenty to debate.

[Encaitare]

I have probably the most reliable source (pre-movie) of Legolas killing Grima: The LotR Trivia Pursuit game. One of the questions is "Who kills Grime Wormtongue?" Answer: "Legolas" Can't get much more straightforward than that.

Blast.

As far as I can see, he's the only logical choice to do it, unless you want Aragorn to?

The logical choice? I suppose so. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. I don't think Aragorn would kill him, since he did spare him at Edoras. Theoden would kill him if he had the chance... in fact, I'm not sure what I do want. What Essex said about Legolas shooting Grima after he threw the Palantir is fine by me, I guess. I'll have to think on it. I just don't want to see him laughing like a maniac and then having the arrow crash down into his skull, like Estel said it might be.

Picture the scene in the movies where Legolas, say, kills Grima, and all the people in the cinema cheer and holler. That would encourage the audience to completely miss and ignore the point of Grima's pitiful end. This is not some nameless Orc for one of the good guys to slice open. Rather this is an important representation of a hopeless and pathetic man. This death is a genuinely melancholy one, and needs the proper treatment which Tolkien gave it.

As the lone Grima fangirl, I take off my hat to you, Eomer.

[Elianna]

As the lone Grime fangirl...

You stand not alone. It's very strange, and I can't explain it, but you stand not alone.

[Boromir88]

but I do not find myself constantly thinking how they could or should have been done when I am watching the films. I simply suspend my book-based sensibilities and enjoy

SpM, I must admit you can restrain yourself more then me . I always think, PJ should have stuck with the book on this, or on that. Then there's some things where I can understand why PJ changed, whether it was to appeal to a wider fan base, or an example of adding in a little extra Arwen to show the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen. I give PJ credit because I don't know who could have done a better job and at the same time attract such a large fan base, he please the Tolkien readers (most of them) and he also adds in the "girl" crowd with Mr. Bloom and Mr. Wood. Once it gets to the bottom of it, it really is one of the best movies I've seen in a long time (and probably the most watched I've ever seen). The biggest thing I give PJ the thumbs up to is bringing new readers into the "LOTR" world.

[gorthaur_cruel]

Lego's bow, strung with elf-hair and carved from mallorn wood, has a maximum effective range of 400 yards. Orthanc is "only" about 170 yards tall. He could make it easily.

Shooting a bow up goes against gravity...

[Imladris]

Shooting a bow up goes against gravity...

Does throwing a ball over the roof of a house go against gravity?

It only breaks the law when it doesn't come down again.

[Kransha]

Time for my opinion. I warn y'all, it's long-winded. Saruman and Grima are two of my favorite characters, and Saruman is the most favored, in my eyes. So, I have a very aggressive stance on this. As far as canon logic goes, I was dismissive of certain things. I resented the cinematic exaggeration of the Arwen/Aragorn romance, since, if it and the Strider-Tumbles-Off-A-Cliff Subplot had been diminished in the second film, more room would've been made for the important, canonical, and far more interesting subplots. But, I took a more objective stance on the lack of Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Ghan-buri-Ghan, Beregond, Imrahil, et cetera. This, however, required, and still requires, my feeble, miserly attentions.

I am not outraged...nor am I pleased.

In detail, I've studied what PJ planned to do. It was more than obvious that he would seek finalization with Saruman and Grima. I knew he would leave out the Scouring of the Shire, I also knew, after some research that Legolas would be the one to slay Grima, after the Worm had killed Saruman, probably ala defenestration. I've seen several clips of the EE that point to these things, and others. My opinion is a bit hostile, as of now, because of PJ's reduction of the magnificent Curunir, Saruman of the Many Colors, and his faithful Worm.

For those of you who don't know, or haven't figured out yet, the "wheel-impaling" death of Saruman is a bit of creative homage to Christopher Lee's days in the Hammer-Horror Double Features, when cinema was something that could be so immensely corny it was good. Christopher Lee's most memorable role, before Saruman and the more recents, was as Dracula. In that, he was (several times) impaled on wheel spikes. This is all well and good, but the impaling of Saruman is, in my opinion, not. The circumstance of a "falling death" reduces Saruman's character to impotency. It is a classically "megolamaniacal supervillain" death, the kind Saruman does not deserve. Similarly Grima's death gives him to much potency. When the audience sees that the overly loved 'Leggy' has slain Grima, there will be cheers for the Elf, boos for the Worm. Grima is not fit for that. He will be maligned as 'that wicked old coot' who 'brave Legolas' slew 'bravely' with his 'bravery.' There is, so far, no good reason for Legolas to kill Grima, on technicality, and Legolas' little bow skillz should be rendered null and void.

Some other notes, which I have not seen mentioned. Saruman is going to get a bit 'magical' in his finale scene. I do not know how much the discussion frequents these boards, but it was personally revolting to find out that cinematic Saruman is actually going to shoot a fireball from his staff at Gandalf. Saruman's power, as stated by C. Lee himself, lies in his voice, Yes, he is Istari, but, even in his last desperate moments, is he really the character who go out in a melodramatic, ridiculous, fairy-tale-villain blaze of fury like that? At least give him back his immortal "Gibbets and crows!" speech, to infer that he still has his eminent talent. Saruman is still a tempter, and I hope he gets to do some tempting, instead of just spouting villainous movie drivel at Gandalf and Co.

I am currently unsure of how the palantir is actually going to get down to ground level, and curious about it as well. In one shot of the EE, Saruman actually shows the palantir to Gandalf, from atop Orthanc. Most people have speculated that Saruman is going to drop it when he falls, but this no longer makes sense, when weighed against another shot, just before Saruman's death, in which he is not holding the palantir, and is rather busy with the whole fireball business. My sense of inner continuity may be way off, but I think the whole situation presents a secondary problem. Not a large one, merely a problem of neatness, and proper cinematic cropping. How does one make this over and underwrought scene work. For a really good villain, or two, such dramatism is useless. Saruman deserves a just end, and PJ is, no doubt, trying his hardest. I only hope he can work his directorial magic one last time. Grima, though, is not a potent villain, as I've stated, and should not be nobly slain as such. Milord Eomer of the Rohirrim said it best, and I will leave you all with that.

[Boromir88]

Kransha, wonderful post, I do agree with you on most points, so here's my response.

I resented the cinematic exaggeration of the Arwen/Aragorn romance, since, if it and the Strider-Tumbles-Off-A-Cliff Subplot had been diminished in the second film, more room would've been made for the important, canonical, and far more interesting subplots. But, I took a more objective stance on the lack of Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Ghan-buri-Ghan, Beregond, Imrahil, et cetera. This, however, required, and still requires, my feeble, miserly attentions.

Yes the Aragorn's near-death-tumble-off-a-cliff-floating-down-a-river was over the board. I would have also liked to see some of the other characters (I mean instead of the made up Lurtz, or Faramir's made up Lieutenant Madril) you could have added in some of the real Characters. Leaving out Beregond and Imrahil you lose a face of Gondor, you lose the strength in the Knights of Dol Amroth, and you lose the compassion for poor Faramir. As for the other characters, sure I would have liked to have seen them too, but in the end it's not something I'm devastated about, I can live with it.

For those of you who don't know, or haven't figured out yet, the "wheel-impaling" death of Saruman is a bit of creative homage to Christopher Lee's days in the Hammer-Horror Double Features, when cinema was something that could be so immensely corny it was good. Christopher Lee's most memorable role, before Saruman and the more recents, was as Dracula. In that, he was (several times) impaled on wheel spikes. This is all well and good, but the impaling of Saruman is, in my opinion, not. The circumstance of a "falling death" reduces Saruman's character to impotency.

That's interesting info about Dracula, I like it. Now Saruman's wheel-impailing, I take as symbolic. As if Saruman created those machines and so it's fitting that he dies on those machines. Knowing that Tolkien disliked Industry, and was a nature person, I think it's fitting. But then I look at PJ, and realize oh he just did it for the blood and gore, there's no symbolism in it (but I still like to think he intended it for symbolic purposes lol).

Similarly Grima's death gives him to much potency. When the audience sees that the overly loved 'Leggy' has slain Grima, there will be cheers for the Elf, boos for the Worm. Grima is not fit for that.

Agree with you 100%.

do not know how much the discussion frequents these boards, but it was personally revolting to find out that cinematic Saruman is actually going to shoot a fireball from his staff at Gandalf. Saruman's power, as stated by C. Lee himself, lies in his voice, Yes, he is Istari, but, even in his last desperate moments,

I will close my eyes during the Fireball part, there is no doubt about that. Yes, Saruman's power lies in his voice, he can be powerful and scary, to get that "fear factor" or he could be sweet and honeyed to fill you with "false promises" in order to join him. Anyway the Istari were forbidden to match their power with Sauron's power, or to use it in order to seek dominion over Elves and Men. I absolutely hate that question when people ask "Why doesn't Gandalf shoot a laser ray out of his staff to kill all the orcs?" First off it's too hard to explain because someone who hasn't read the books won't understand the Istari, and plus it's just annoying. As discussed many times the Istari weren't some fairy Harry Potter karblasto wizards.

P.S. yes, I do too hope they have the sympathetic Saruman, not the insulting old man. Here's a quote from The Voice of Saruman.

The Window closed. They waited. Suddenly another voice spoke, low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment. Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the words that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them. Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves. When others spoke (Eomer, Theoden, Gimli) they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast; and if they gainsaid the voice (Saruman's voice), anger was kindled in the hearts of those under the spell.

The one's underneath the spell were obviously the Rohirrim outside of the tower, for they wondered why Theoden, Eomer...etc would reject Saruman's plea. As it says, there's no more power in Saruman's voice, he doesn't have that "fear factor" anymore, he's more pitiable, sort of like a beggar. He comes off as sorryful, and telling Theoden he's sorry, he misunderstood, and the one's under the spell, take these words as "wise" and reasonable. Then when they hear Gimli, Eomer, Theoden, reject and not listen to Saruman's words, anger groes in their hearts, for it doesn't seem "reasonable." Of course, Saruman isn't really sorry, he's just using his own power to his advantage. He's trying to come off as pitiable just to get what he wants. So I hope we get to see that side of Saruman.