Why is the Hated Loved?

[Imladris]

I searched but didn't find what I was looking for. If I missed a topic, please forgive me...

I was reading the Silmarillion and I was surprised and perplexed at the similarites that Gollum, Melkor, and Ungoliant possess:

for she [Ungoliant] hungered for light and hated it.

Melkor does not love light, yet he lusted after the Silmarils (made from the Light of the Two Trees). He would not give give them up, even though they burned his hand:

nor was he ever free from the pain of the burning, and the anger of the pain.

And then there is Gollum, who loved and hated the Ring.

What do you think that Tolkien was trying to say?

[Boromir88]

Imladris, good topic, I don't really have a definate answer. I will say that I think Morgoth kept the Silmarils, because of greed. But, I wonder if this is Tolkien trying to show the "evil/hated" used to be good.

When you think of light, you think of "good." If you think about it, nobody is "born" evil. Nobody is born/created with the intent of killing, or murdering, or raping, they at one point of their life were "good." Melkor was at first good, Gollum was, unfortunately I don't know a lot about Ungoliant so I wouldn't be able to say. When you think of Sauron, he too was at first good, then turned evil. Is this Tolkien trying to show evil comes out of good? I happen to believe one year old babies don't have any thought of killing people. I'm pretty sure Stalin at one year old didn't ever say, jeez I want to murder 20 million people. It's what that person experiences/learns to become the way he becomes, a good example Sauron. Then how does evil begin? if nobody is "born" evil? Greed. Greed for money, greed for power, maybe curiosity, who knows. I don't even know if Tolkien meant any of this, just splurting out a possibility.

[Kuruharan]

What do you think that Tolkien was trying to say?

That human beings are very perverse.

We desperately desire a lot of things that are bad (or, if you prefer, "unhealthy") for us, but we want them anyway.

At the same time we know the damage these things can do to us and are afraid of it and angered by it when the damage is done, but we can't let go.

So we dislike the thing (hate) but we can't free ourselves from it because we still want it (love).

[mark12_30]

The word "addiction" comes to mind.

If a guilty pleasure pleases and satisfies, it does so only for a time, and then the satisfaction is gone and replaced by guilt. So we indulge again. The cycle escalates til we realise that we no longer control ourselves; instead, the cycle of indulgence/guilt controls us.

Most people hate being out of control. Once we realize we are addicted-- helplessly addicted-- to a pleasure, we may hate it even as we indulge.

Gollum, Melkor, and Ungoliant are clear examples.

The other that comes to mind is dear Frodo; after the Ring was destroyed, he still longed for it: "It is gone, and now all is dark and empty." He knew how evil it was; none better. And he hated it. But that didn't free him from desiring it.

[Imladris]

All right....

But if they took pleasure in light, then why did the Valar send light across Middle Earth to stay Melkor's hand?

*is confused how this all works together*

[Son of Númenor]

I think Melkor's and Ungoliant's lust for the Silmarils has everything to do with the nature of evil - specifically, the desire to own & to corrupt all that is 'good'. Melkor desires omnipotence, essentially in the form of rulership over and corruption of all that was once Eru's (&, thus, the Valar's - the Light of the Trees, the Silmarils, etc.).

[mark12_30]

Good point, Son Of Numenor-- I guess Morgoth's addiction is to power, not to light. So maybe addiction isn't the answer to why he hated the light but loved the silmarils. Food for thought.

[Encaitare]

Yes. Melkor and Ungoliant did not want to simply bask in the light and be near its beauty; they wanted to be the ones to own and control it. Out of greed and the lust for power, they were compelled to seek out the Silmarils. The simple action of sending light to "stay Melkor's hand" would perhaps frighten him, but not stop him -- I assume you are talking about the creation of the Sun and the Moon here? In this case, Melkor was definitely shocked by their creation, but it also served to infuriate him. He hated the fact that the Valar could control the light and he could not.

[Gilnaur]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

The word "addiction" comes to mind.

If a guilty pleasure pleases and satisfies, it does so only for a time, and then the satisfaction is gone and replaced by guilt. So we indulge again. The cycle escalates til we realise that we no longer control ourselves; instead, the cycle of indulgence/guilt controls us.

Most people hate being out of control. Once we realize we are addicted-- helplessly addicted-- to a pleasure, we may hate it even as we indulge.

Gollum, Melkor, and Ungoliant are clear examples.

The other that comes to mind is dear Frodo; after the Ring was destroyed, he still longed for it: "It is gone, and now all is dark and empty." He knew how evil it was; none better. And he hated it. But that didn't free him from desiring it.

This is the nature of addiction. The never ending cycle of craving and self-loathing when one gives in to the cravings.

[Tar-Jêx]

With Melkor's case, he likely loved possessing the Silmarils, but hated the pain they caused him.

With Gollum, I'd say similar to Melkor, but more because the Ring forced him to love it, and the 'halfling' side of him hated what it had done to him.

I'm not sure what to think about Ungoliant and the light, however, as it isn't really expanded on like Melkor and Gollum.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Imladris

I searched but didn't find what I was looking for. If I missed a topic, please forgive me...

I was reading the Silmarillion and I was surprised and perplexed at the similarites that Gollum, Melkor, and Ungoliant possess:



Melkor does not love light, yet he lusted after the Silmarils (made from the Light of the Two Trees). He would not give give them up, even though they burned his hand:



And then there is Gollum, who loved and hated the Ring.

What do you think that Tolkien was trying to say?

Did Melkor lust after Silmarils? I think not. I feel he stole them because they contained the light of the Two Trees; and he wanted them to keep from good side i.e. Valar. Light represents hope, and Melkor would certainly fear/hate them, but he'd hate the fact that the light is in possession of his enemies. After all he spent his entire lifetime in darkness and wanted to rule the world by that.
Ungoliant's case seems same to me. She lusted after the light and would eat(?) it. She was fulfilling the purpose of Melkor: spreading darkness. She and Melkor hated the light, but lusted after it so that it should not be in possession of the good, also light was their strength.
Gollum's case was different. He was not like Melkor or Ungoliant. He lacked morals but wasn't devoid of them like the other two were. Ring amplified his "evil qualities", and he let the evil consume him. His hatred for the Ring was basically because he still had a human part safe, in his soul; and he loved it because he was addicted to it, he got "energy" from the Ring to survive.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Did Melkor lust after Silmarils? I think not.

"Melkor lusted for the Silmarils, and the very memory of their radiance was a gnawing fire in his heart." (The Silmarillion Chapter 7)

"Fëanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils." (The Silmarillion Chapter 7)

"The Jewels were coveted by Morgoth the Enemy, who stole them and, after destroying the Trees, took them to Middle-earth, and guarded them in his great fortress of Thangorodrim." (The Lord of the Rings Appendix A)

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

I feel he stole them because they contained the light of the Two Trees; and he wanted them to keep from good side i.e. Valar. Light represents hope, and Melkor would certainly fear/hate them, but he'd hate the fact that the light is in possession of his enemies. After all he spent his entire lifetime in darkness and wanted to rule the world by that.

"He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness." (The Silmarillion, "Valaquenta")

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Zig�0‹4r

"Melkor lusted for the Silmarils, and the very memory of their radiance was a gnawing fire in his heart." (The Silmarillion Chapter 7)

"F�0Š5anor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils." (The Silmarillion Chapter 7)

"The Jewels were coveted by Morgoth the Enemy, who stole them and, after destroying the Trees, took them to Middle-earth, and guarded them in his great fortress of Thangorodrim." (The Lord of the Rings Appendix A)

"He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness." (The Silmarillion, "Valaquenta")

Thanks for the clarification about the first quote. I meant in a different way actually.
Why did Melkor desire the Silmarils? Not for himself certainly. Though my impression was that he'd want them to keep from the Valar. Taking away the sources of the lights would weaken their powers- In his mind(may be?)- and so Melkor would be able to defeat them, and thus claim the light as well.
Sorry, again for the mess.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Why did Melkor desire the Silmarils? Not for himself certainly. Though my impression was that he'd want them to keep from the Valar. Taking away the sources of the lights would weaken their powers- In his mind(may be?)- and so Melkor would be able to defeat them, and thus claim the light as well.

The hunger for Light seems to be a common thread among the evil in Arda.
Ungoliant was said to be a devourer of light, as was her offspring, Shelob. I think that may be related to the desire of the Nazgûl for, as described by Aragorn, 'the blood of living things, desiring and hating it'. Evil may only recognize its ultimate emptiness when seen in relation to good as embodied by Light, and thus wants to possess that light, though it cannot endure it.