Equinii and Solsticsesss, m'preciousss - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mark12_30 · 08-19-2004, 08:25 AM

Actually, Websters makes the plural Solstices, and numerous other sites refer to Equinoxes. (How pedestrian.) I was pondering Special Dates in Lord of the Rings while I was trying to schedule some things so that I would remember them. Associating them with Tolkien-dates seemed like a good idea. Three dates came immediately to mind: Frodo's birthday, Fellowship Departure day, and Ring Destruction Day. I noticed a few seasonal connections.

Fellowship Departure Day (from Rivendell) is Dec 25, with obvious connections to Christmas. Ring Destruction Day according to Shipley is related to the old date for Easter. So those two days could arguably hve a purely religious significance to Tolkien. However, Frodo's birthday (and Bilbo's) on Sept 22 is on or near the Autumn Equinox. Ring Destruction Day is rather near to the Spring Equinox. And Christmas is a mere four days after the Winter Solstice, mostly due to midieval Calendar-shifts if memory serves; a four-day calendar shift would explain both rather neatly.

So from the Shire to Rivendell is Frodo's Autumn; from Rivendell to Mount Doom is his Winter, followed by his Spring... what begins his summer?

Quote:

And Aragorn the King Elessar wedded Arwen Undómiel in the City of the Kings upon the day of Midsummer...

Frodo returns to Rivendell to celebrate his birthday with Bilbo (on or near the autumnal equinox) he enters Autumn again. So his trip back to the Shire takes place in Autumn, winter's chill descending.

What other equinox/solstice events come to mind? Was this a pervasive pattern for Tolkien (gardener that he was) or was it just this quest? And what seasonal things have I left out?

Estelyn started something seasonal in this thread wherein lie some interesting points; since then Shippey seems to have clarified (or authorized?) the Easter connection but not neccessarily the vernal equinox.

davem · 08-19-2004, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Fellowship Departure Day (from Rivendell) is Dec 25, with obvious connections to Christmas. Ring Destruction Day according to Shipley is related to the old date for Easter.

Tolkien himself does write in Lobdell: A Tolkien Compass:

Quote:

'The fellowship ... left on December 25th, which then had no sgniificance, since the Yule, or its equivalent, was then the last day of the year & the first of the next year. But December 25th (setting out) & March 25th (accomplishment of the quest) were intentionally chosen by me'

'A guide to the names in LotR'

Quote:

However, Frodo's birthday (and Bilbo's) on Sept 22 is on or near the Autumn Equinox.

I always thought this date was a kind of in-joke, due to the fact that the Hobbit was published on that day in 1937.

Mithalwen · 08-19-2004, 12:35 PM

the 25th of December and March are also "Quarter Days" as are Midsummer Day on June 24th and Michaelmas (29th September). These were the days traditionally when rent and taxes were due and servant hired. The 25th of March was also the start of the new year for about 600 years (12-18th centuries). It is also the feast of the Annunciation or Lady Day which may have been a factor for the Catholic Tolkien. It could be a kind of reverse gestation period .... instead of nine months awaiting the birth of the Messiah, a three month journey to destroy the power of evil....
I can't check this just now but they must have been in Lorien for Candlemas .......

Findegil · 08-20-2004, 02:24 AM

Since it was asked for events that happened at day of Equinoxes or Solstices, I will let the dates aside. I just like to say that you must take the defernce in the calenders of the shire and the one used today into account.

Events that come to mind: The Dwarves of Thorin left Rivendell at the day after Midsummer (June Solstices).

Gondolin was attacked at the night of Midsummer.

The resurected Doriath under Dior was attacked by the Feanorians at Midwinter.

The Dagor Bergolach was started at Midwinter.

The Nirneath Arnoediad was lunched on Midsummermorning.

So fare what I remeber.

Respectfully
Findegil

mark12_30 · 08-20-2004, 08:35 AM

Ah, many thanks, Findegil. Precisely the sort of thing I was interested in.

Your point about the difference in the two calendars is of course relevant, and thank you for pointing it out. To me there is a balance of some sort between the Terran calendar and the Middle-Earth, Shire calendars and Elven(?) calendars; Tolkien seemed to emphasize different things at different times in either of the calendars.

In addition, to be fair-- since I allowed for four slippery days regarding Easter and Christmas-- let's extend the discussion to those dates of interest that are close enough to the equinox or solstice that they beg inclusion in the discussion. (A month off won't do, in my mind.)

Regarding Rivendell and Bilbo-- I remember Bilbo going out to the riverside to watch the elves sing and dance on Midsummer's eve as especially Faerie.

Back to your points, Findegil; three major battles begun on or near midsummers... somehow, beginning a battle in the soft beauty and peace of Midsummer seems to me especially sad and horrifying. I have to give the (dratted) Feanoreans credit for waiting til MidWinter; although refugees had it harder in MidWinter.

Findegil · 08-21-2004, 03:52 AM

Well, I think that it natural for the Elves to start a Battle in Midsummer when the sun is up as long as possible, and it is naturale for Morgoth to lunch his attack as Midwinter when he Orks could use the long darkness to there advantage.
The attack on Gondolin would be an expection being lunch as a great surpriese and force in summer since the attackers had to cross the Criseagrim.

Respectfully
Findegil

mark12_30 · 03-24-2006, 08:21 AM

How are we celebrating Ring Destruction Day this year?

I came to work dressed more or less as Frodo... however I'm seen so often in greens and browns, I expect no-one will notice.

Tomorrow I think I'll take the Snowhobbits mountain-biking.

Lalwendë · 03-31-2006, 02:33 PM

Here's a question I've been pondering for a few days, and this seems an appropriate thread to put it on.

Are there any instances of either solar or lunar eclipses in Tolkien's work? He accounts for the phases of the Moon by saying that sometimes Tilion comes too close to Arien and that this causes the Moon (borne by Tilion) to darken. Or would this signify a lunar eclipse?

mark12_30 · 03-31-2006, 08:21 PM

Sounds more eclipse-ish to me. Experts...?

Mithalwen · 04-02-2006, 10:09 AM

I would say eclipse since the phases are a regular and easily observable 28 day cycle. Eclipses are much rarer and irregular (from the perspective of an observer in any given location) and consequently more frightening and in need of a "comforting" explanation. I am no expert but I was interested enough to do a short course at the CET a couple of years ago and it was fascinating tho learn some of the different myths created by various cultures around the stars.

I think that Tolkien did try hard to be consistent with his phases of the moon when the fellowship were separated - Barbara Strachey monitors this in "The journeys of Frodo".

08-19-2004, 12:35 PM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	English Quarter days the 25th of December and March are also "Quarter Days" as are Midsummer Day on June 24th and Michaelmas (29th September). These were the days traditionally when rent and taxes were due and servant hired. The 25th of March was also the start of the new year for about 600 years (12-18th centuries). It is also the feast of the Annunciation or Lady Day which may have been a factor for the Catholic Tolkien. It could be a kind of reverse gestation period .... instead of nine months awaiting the birth of the Messiah, a three month journey to destroy the power of evil.... I can't check this just now but they must have been in Lorien for Candlemas ....... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-20-2004, 08:35 AM	#5
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Ah, many thanks, Findegil. Precisely the sort of thing I was interested in. Your point about the difference in the two calendars is of course relevant, and thank you for pointing it out. To me there is a balance of some sort between the Terran calendar and the Middle-Earth, Shire calendars and Elven(?) calendars; Tolkien seemed to emphasize different things at different times in either of the calendars. In addition, to be fair-- since I allowed for four slippery days regarding Easter and Christmas-- let's extend the discussion to those dates of interest that are close enough to the equinox or solstice that they beg inclusion in the discussion. (A month off won't do, in my mind.) Regarding Rivendell and Bilbo-- I remember Bilbo going out to the riverside to watch the elves sing and dance on Midsummer's eve as especially Faerie. Back to your points, Findegil; three major battles begun on or near midsummers... somehow, beginning a battle in the soft beauty and peace of Midsummer seems to me especially sad and horrifying. I have to give the (dratted) Feanoreans credit for waiting til MidWinter; although refugees had it harder in MidWinter. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-24-2006, 08:21 AM	#7
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Ring Destruction Day How are we celebrating Ring Destruction Day this year? I came to work dressed more or less as Frodo... however I'm seen so often in greens and browns, I expect no-one will notice. Tomorrow I think I'll take the Snowhobbits mountain-biking. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-31-2006, 02:33 PM	#8
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Here's a question I've been pondering for a few days, and this seems an appropriate thread to put it on. Are there any instances of either solar or lunar eclipses in Tolkien's work? He accounts for the phases of the Moon by saying that sometimes Tilion comes too close to Arien and that this causes the Moon (borne by Tilion) to darken. Or would this signify a lunar eclipse? __________________ Gordon's alive!

03-31-2006, 08:21 PM	#9
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Sounds more eclipse-ish to me. Experts...? __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

08-20-2004, 02:24 AM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Since it was asked for events that happened at day of Equinoxes or Solstices, I will let the dates aside. I just like to say that you must take the defernce in the calenders of the shire and the one used today into account. Events that come to mind: The Dwarves of Thorin left Rivendell at the day after Midsummer (June Solstices). Gondolin was attacked at the night of Midsummer. The resurected Doriath under Dior was attacked by the Feanorians at Midwinter. The Dagor Bergolach was started at Midwinter. The Nirneath Arnoediad was lunched on Midsummermorning. So fare what I remeber. Respectfully Findegil

08-21-2004, 03:52 AM	#6
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Well, I think that it natural for the Elves to start a Battle in Midsummer when the sun is up as long as possible, and it is naturale for Morgoth to lunch his attack as Midwinter when he Orks could use the long darkness to there advantage. The attack on Gondolin would be an expection being lunch as a great surpriese and force in summer since the attackers had to cross the Criseagrim. Respectfully Findegil

04-02-2006, 10:09 AM	#10
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	I would say eclipse since the phases are a regular and easily observable 28 day cycle. Eclipses are much rarer and irregular (from the perspective of an observer in any given location) and consequently more frightening and in need of a "comforting" explanation. I am no expert but I was interested enough to do a short course at the CET a couple of years ago and it was fascinating tho learn some of the different myths created by various cultures around the stars. I think that Tolkien did try hard to be consistent with his phases of the moon when the fellowship were separated - Barbara Strachey monitors this in "The journeys of Frodo". __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace