Thoughts on friendships.

[Boromir88]

Tolkien stresses the point of friendships throughout his books. The main ones I wanted to get too were The Fellowship, Gondor and Rohan, and Sauron and Saruman. I will touch on a few others, but there will be many I don't talk about so please send in your thoughts.

First off, The Fellowship, the fellowship broke up in utter disaster at the end of FOTR. It was because of the Fellowship that created the bonds between fellowship members later on through the story. Without the Fellowship you wouldn't have the friendships with the Grey company, Merry and Pip, and Frodo and Sam. The fellowship broke apart but out of it came smaller, yet stronger, friendships. You simply wouldn't have that if there was no fellowship.

Second the two connected relationships between Gondor and Rohan (something the movies don't show well). First, as most know Denethor willingly lit the beacons, and sent out the red arrow. Theoden wasn't such a jerk as well, lol, he knew why Gondor couldn't be there to help Rohan, and he understood, so when the Beacons were lit he knew he must ride to Gondor (Which in the movie he does eventually do). This is sort of a weak bond, because Denethor hated anybody who didn't fight underneath him, he wanted to control, but he did this for the defense of Gondor, no matter how small of numbers Rohan came in (6 000 I believe) without them, Gondor would have lost. The Second friendship between Gondor and Rohan (or soon to be) is between Aragorn and Eomer (which again the movie just doesn't show). Aragorn (soon to be king of Gondor) and Eomer (soon to be king of Rohan) create a strong bond between eachother, symbolizing the future relationship between Gondor and Rohan, a strong, lasting one. They created a bond way back in the seconds chapter of TTT, and continued it to the very end, and would continue it until each's death, and beyond.

Lastly, the weak ties between Sauron and Saruman (which I would think is one of the downfalls of these two evils, there ill use of one another). Saruman thought he could deal with Sauron, and Sauron knew this and just used Saruman as a puppet. This goes to show a point, "good" friendships remain strong and true, "evil" friendships are weak and will be broken. Occurs through history a couple of times, WW2, Hitler doesn't use his allies (Russia and Italy) to his advantage. Causing Sauron's downfall and Hitler's downfall.

Some of the other relationships would be people who aren't really "allies" but have a common enemy and decide to help eachother. Gollum is a good example with Frodo (yes Gollum wanted to kill Frodo, to get the ring back). The point is Gollum hated Sauron probably even more then he hated Frodo. He wanted to do whatever he could to keep Sauron from getting the ring, and if that ment to have it in the hands of a Hobbit (in his mind atleast only for a while), it's much better then Sauron getting it. Then finally you have Ghan-buri-ghan and his agreement with Theoden. Before this time it seemed like the Woses weren't that great of friends with Rohan, but yet we have it again, they have a common enemy in this case, Ghan wants to kill Gorgun. I believe Ghan says something like we don't have enough to kill gorgun, so we help you kill them (something to that effect). In return Ghan wanted peace for his people, and I'm sure long after these troubles they got it.

There are many others I haven't even touched on, Shelob-Sauron, Elrond and Galadriel's impact, Halbarad-Aragorn...the list just goes on. So instead of taking up too much of the screen, if anyone wouldn't mind talking about other relationships or making comments on the ones I've posted, please do so.

[Rimbaud]

Just a quick point on what you are saying: I believe what you are driving at is Tolkien's understanding of the importance of trust in any genuine friendship.

A good example would perhaps be a case where a good friendship did not develop; let's use Boromir and Frodo as an example. Despite being (in markedly different ways) fine individuals - who, with some irony, ultimately are vindicated of the same flaw - they never in life create such a bond as you describe above. The key reason for this, would surely be the lack of trust, despite there being mutual respect between them and other qualities necessary for friends.

The reason Sauron and Saruman could never truly be 'friends' is the same lack of trust. On that matter, however, I do not think Tolkien ever intended for this realtionship to be considered any more than the sum of its parts - constituents that comprise convenience, greed and mutual loathing of the status quo. I think it unlikely that either character believed in any 'friendship', it was a marriage of convenience.

The friendships within the Fellowship are as you describe, rich and true, but perhaps more interesting would be the friendship between Gandalf and Saruman, prior to the former discovering the treachery of the latter. Could it really be termed a friendship?

[Boromir88]

I think you nailed it about the "trust." That could be the biggest part in having a successful bond, trust, if you can't trust one another how can you have a lasting friendship? That was a good point you made.

Gandalf and Saruman, I never really saw as a friendship, I thought of it more that Saruman was a role model for Gandalf. Like an adviser, or tutor sort of thing. Gandalf went to Saruman for advice on matters, and that advice didn't turn out too well. But, even after his capture, and escape, he said if he would have suspected Saruman of turning "evil" he wouldn't have gone, or would have went more cautiously. I don't see it quite as a friendship, just a peer leader, Gandalf looked up to and went for, for a 2nd opinion on matters.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Merry and Pippin didn’t become Frodo’s friends after the Fellowship was formed, they were his friends long before that. One of Tolkien’s most wonderful statements of friendship involves the element of trust. From “A Conspiracy Unmasked”:

You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin – to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours – closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo… We are horribly afraid – but we are coming with you; or following you like hounds.

[Boromir88]

Estelyn Telcontar , yes, I noticed that quote in the Chapter by Chapter discussions, one of my favorites as well. Correct, Merry and Pip were Frodo's best friends before they left Crickhollow (as I believe that is mentioned in the "Shadow of the Past.") One Friendship the Fellowship did create however was between Sam and Frodo. In the beginning chapters Sam was only a servant to Frodo, his Gardner, but their long journey together, Frodo then put Sam up with Merry and Pip as his best friends.

[ninlaith]

His thoughts on friendship are terribly moving. The little things he slips into the books really matter the most to me. Such as when Sam grabs Frodo's hand when he wakes up in Rivendell, when Frodo is sleeping on Sam's lap and Sam thinks about their friendship and says "I love him", and how when Pippin was wisked off to Gondor it was almost unbearable for him to leave Merry. Tolkien made such a point with his thoughts on friendship. I almost think he was saying if we all had at least one friend like Sam or Merry and Pippin we are truly blessed people.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

One remarkable tale of friendship overcoming various kinds of obstacles is that of Maedhros and Fingon.

"Long before, in the bliss of Valinor, before Melkor was unchained, or lies came between them, Fingon had been close in friendship with Maedhros; and though he knew not yet that Maehros had not forgotten him at the burning of the ships, the thought of their ancient friendship stung his heart. Therefore he dared a deed which is justly renowned among the feats of the princes of the Noldor: alone, and without the counsel of any, he set forth in search of Maedhros..."