The folly of the Valar? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Frodo Baggins · 07-28-2004, 05:31 PM

I have recently read Unfinished Tales (And loved every bit). When it came to the chapter on the Istari I found this little interesting tidbit.

"And this [the sending of the Istari] the Valar did, desiring to ammend the errors of old, especially that they had attmepted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed"

Was this folly their forcing the Elves to go to Aman and live with them? Would the Silmaril problem and kinslaying have been avoided had they let the Elves be? When I first read the Silmarillion I got the Impression that the Valar at first saw the elves as toys to play with. All thoughts on this would be appreciated

**The Saucepan Man** · 07-28-2004, 07:35 PM

Quote:

When I first read the Silmarillion I got the Impression that the Valar at first saw the elves as toys to play with.

No, that would be the Velour.

The Valar, on the other hand, did it with the best of intentions (to protect and educate the Eldar), although it did go rather awry. Then again, they were only Ainur.

Tuor of Gondolin · 07-28-2004, 08:59 PM

But there were some who disagreed with that policy.

"Then again the Valar were gathered in council, and they were divided in debate. For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill order all the lands and heal their hurts.....From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell."

Osse · 07-29-2004, 01:30 AM

I was just about to quote that exact piece Tuor!

I believe that Ulmo was prudent - why not let the Eldar be alone to their own devices in Middle Earth. The correspondance between Valinor and Middle Earth could still be great, and much could still be taught and learned, without the need to live together. I believe Ulmo (and quite obviously Ossë) forsaw that problems would arise from the Eldar dwelling with the Ainur - if anything ever went wrong, they'd feel pent up and captive.

That said, Morgoth would still have come to power, and the problems (though maybe not as dragged out) would still have been very severe. There would have been no Silmarils to fight over, yet Morgoth would still have caused chaos. Perhaps some elves could have been swayed by the dark lord and a racial civil war forced to ensue anyway. Perhaps all the Elves could have been turned, and would have sailed off in war to Valinor.

The Valar in my opinion meddled overmuch in the doings of the Eldar... and though there was a lot of knowledge and wisdom exchanged, it came at a high price.

Mithalwen · 07-29-2004, 10:55 AM

Hmm the noble savage theory obviously didn't hold sway....

Legolas · 07-29-2004, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Was this folly their forcing the Elves to go to Aman and live with them?

No, I think not...the folly was in allowing them to go on against Morgoth unaided for so long. As soon as they intervened, Morgoth fell quickly.

07-28-2004, 05:31 PM	#1
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	The folly of the Valar? I have recently read Unfinished Tales (And loved every bit). When it came to the chapter on the Istari I found this little interesting tidbit. "And this [the sending of the Istari] the Valar did, desiring to ammend the errors of old, especially that they had attmepted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed" Was this folly their forcing the Elves to go to Aman and live with them? Would the Silmaril problem and kinslaying have been avoided had they let the Elves be? When I first read the Silmarillion I got the Impression that the Valar at first saw the elves as toys to play with. All thoughts on this would be appreciated __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

07-28-2004, 08:59 PM	#3
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	But there were some who disagreed with that policy. "Then again the Valar were gathered in council, and they were divided in debate. For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill order all the lands and heal their hurts.....From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell." Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 07-30-2004 at 08:12 AM.

07-29-2004, 01:30 AM	#4
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	I was just about to quote that exact piece Tuor! I believe that Ulmo was prudent - why not let the Eldar be alone to their own devices in Middle Earth. The correspondance between Valinor and Middle Earth could still be great, and much could still be taught and learned, without the need to live together. I believe Ulmo (and quite obviously Ossë) forsaw that problems would arise from the Eldar dwelling with the Ainur - if anything ever went wrong, they'd feel pent up and captive. That said, Morgoth would still have come to power, and the problems (though maybe not as dragged out) would still have been very severe. There would have been no Silmarils to fight over, yet Morgoth would still have caused chaos. Perhaps some elves could have been swayed by the dark lord and a racial civil war forced to ensue anyway. Perhaps all the Elves could have been turned, and would have sailed off in war to Valinor. The Valar in my opinion meddled overmuch in the doings of the Eldar... and though there was a lot of knowledge and wisdom exchanged, it came at a high price. __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

07-29-2004, 10:55 AM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	Hmm the noble savage theory obviously didn't hold sway.... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace