The Landing of Elendil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Osse · 07-02-2004, 05:35 AM

As we all know, Elendil escaped the Wrath of the Valar and the sinking of Numenor with his sons and seven other ships full of those true to the West. He then founded the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. However, I am a little sceptical that seven ship-loads would be enough to populate both kingdoms, dispite them mingling with those people of (mixed or scant) Numenorean descent that inhabited the western shores of Middle Earth! If we reason that (given the situations of departure hehe) each ship could carry (at most) one hundred and fifty people, that still means that only one-thousand-and-fifty Numenoreans were able to land, and subsequently start the new kingdoms. Of course, the documentation covering the events are rather wanting, and state only that Elendil made it safely to Middle Earth with six other ships and then begun the two kingdoms. Of course, this is dosen't say how quickly it happened, but one can be lulled into the assumption that it happened almost instantaneously. This brings me to another point, if the Numenoreans were to successfully start their kingdoms, at least some mingling would have had to have occured with those already living in Middle Earth. Thus, right from the outset, the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor must have not been of completely pure Numenorean blood, and the diminishing of the race must have started almost immediately! Also, what aid did the Elves of Eriador give to the Men?

Saraphim · 07-02-2004, 06:23 PM

Elendil, which means something along the lines of "Elf-Friend", was already friendly with Gil-Galad and the elves at Lindon. The elven-king would have probably given help by means of food and supplies, and possibly even labor.

Like you said, Osse, there would not have been very many people in the ships, but there were, like you also said, many settlers already on Middle-Earth. Most of these would have probably intermarried and thus produced many others not of purely Numenorean blood, but I do not see the Numenorean refugees being snobbish about who was allowed to settle in thier new kingdoms.

I don't think it took minutes to create the kingdoms, either. Rome wasn't built in a day, and niether was Osgiliath. It takes quite a bit of stone to make one of those cities, and there were many of them, not including Minas Anor (Tirith), which must have taken generations to create.

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Thus, right from the outset, the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor must have not been of completely pure Numenorean blood, and the diminishing of the race must have started almost immediately!

Exactly. In the Lord of the Rings, I remember this being a dillema among the Stewards, since thier bloodline was diminishing so quickly and the amount of non-related, Numenorean-decended women for the Stewards to marry had all but disappeared. With the return of the King (no pun intented), and his marriage to one of the elder kin (notwithstanding that she wasn't technically full-blooded elf herself), this would have boosted the failing bloodline.

Mithalwen · 07-03-2004, 01:35 PM

Numenoreans started to build permanent havens as early as 1200SA and a thousand years later Pelargir and Imbar were built as the chief haven and great fortress of the Numenoreans in Middle Earth ...... So there were potentially 2000 year old communities of Numenoreans in Middle Earth when Elendil and co arrived... It is in the nature of things that the first Mariners may have taken local wives but as communities became more established it is not unlikely that Numenorean families may have "emigrated" and so the Numenorean strain may have been more concentrated rather than diluted over time ... especially since the disparity of lifespan would have meant that they would have preferred spouses of Numenorean descent - especially as the Numenoreans don't seem to have remarried after widowhood.... So it is quite likely that while the numenoreans and non numenoreans may have lived together peacefully they may not have intermarried to such a great extent once the communities were established and especially when "refugees" from the rebellion arrived ..... remember it was a thousand year between the start of the rebellion and the down fall.... The decline would have been more marked after the carnage of the last alliance....... However it can be seen that some communities held out longest and lifespan was the indicator - I can't quite remember who - maybe Beregond ? said that it was uncommon to reach eighty and still be hale unless you were from a "pure blood" family - The Princes of Dol Amroth all make 100 or thereabouts ... and while Imrahill is only a few years younger than Theoden - he is portrayed as a man in his prime..... The men of Dol Amroth also retain the classic Numenorean appearance ..... height as well as longevity being a Numenorean trait.....

I think some of the regions had more non numenoreans... but I can't find that now

.......

Faramir is an interesting case - he has the typical Numenorean traits of nobility of character and bearing and height - and he has a conspicuously long life reaching about 120 - which seems to be more than could have expected from his genetic legacy even allowing for the fact that he is the child of a Steward and a daughter of the "ultra pure" house of Dol Amroth. Maybe a small part of the "grace" given to the first Numenoreans was given to Faramir as a reward for his small but significant role in the success of the mission of the Ringbearer? I like to think so....

Osse · 07-04-2004, 05:03 AM

Very dilligent points Mith. The havens of both Umbar and Pelargir were well established at the time of the Landing. There is nothing to say that their populations were not sufficient to supplement the building of the other two realms. However, these settlements were not neglected, especially Umbar, which continued as it had always done. Also, the blood mixing was quite heavy in these regions. What I am getting at is that these regions were towns to themselves, and went on as they had done after Elendil founded Arnor and Gondor. There cannot possibly have been enough people (at least of high-Numenorean descent) to populate two other realms as well as the original ones. No doubt tools and masons were used to build the bones of the realms... ie Minas Ithil and Isengard which were said to have been built in the first year of the occupation. Everything, seems to move a bit fast...

My other point is this; how does Elendil manage to gather such an immense host (many tens of thousands of men) in only ten years. It is truly astounding. I am very interesting in hearing what other Barrow Downers have to say on this issue...

Mithalwen · 07-04-2004, 10:40 AM

Oh I think you may have made the mistake I did on a RPG, necessitating a major bio rewrite..... there is a hundred and ten years between the downfall and the alliance......

Also the REalms in exile would have absorbed existing communities..... I mean I don't know how long there was a community at Bree but while it had been part of the North Kingdom, there is little evidence of numenorean blood in it's inhabitants and the rangers were in the time of the LOTR clearly a race apart.....

However I think it is quite clear that the Numenoreans spread them selves pretty thinly especially in the north where no Numenorean communities survived the king and even in Gondor the populace was fragile - hence the willingness to give Calenardhon to the northmen.........

Osse · 07-05-2004, 05:27 AM

Ah yes... i see now! Silly me... it is indeed 110 years between the founding of the realms and the defeat of sauron. That opens up my doubts somewhat, thank you Mith... We can just assume that the Numenoreans were all very young

07-02-2004, 05:35 AM	#1
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	The Landing of Elendil As we all know, Elendil escaped the Wrath of the Valar and the sinking of Numenor with his sons and seven other ships full of those true to the West. He then founded the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. However, I am a little sceptical that seven ship-loads would be enough to populate both kingdoms, dispite them mingling with those people of (mixed or scant) Numenorean descent that inhabited the western shores of Middle Earth! If we reason that (given the situations of departure hehe) each ship could carry (at most) one hundred and fifty people, that still means that only one-thousand-and-fifty Numenoreans were able to land, and subsequently start the new kingdoms. Of course, the documentation covering the events are rather wanting, and state only that Elendil made it safely to Middle Earth with six other ships and then begun the two kingdoms. Of course, this is dosen't say how quickly it happened, but one can be lulled into the assumption that it happened almost instantaneously. This brings me to another point, if the Numenoreans were to successfully start their kingdoms, at least some mingling would have had to have occured with those already living in Middle Earth. Thus, right from the outset, the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor must have not been of completely pure Numenorean blood, and the diminishing of the race must have started almost immediately! Also, what aid did the Elves of Eriador give to the Men? __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

07-04-2004, 05:03 AM	#4
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	Very dilligent points Mith. The havens of both Umbar and Pelargir were well established at the time of the Landing. There is nothing to say that their populations were not sufficient to supplement the building of the other two realms. However, these settlements were not neglected, especially Umbar, which continued as it had always done. Also, the blood mixing was quite heavy in these regions. What I am getting at is that these regions were towns to themselves, and went on as they had done after Elendil founded Arnor and Gondor. There cannot possibly have been enough people (at least of high-Numenorean descent) to populate two other realms as well as the original ones. No doubt tools and masons were used to build the bones of the realms... ie Minas Ithil and Isengard which were said to have been built in the first year of the occupation. Everything, seems to move a bit fast... My other point is this; how does Elendil manage to gather such an immense host (many tens of thousands of men) in only ten years. It is truly astounding. I am very interesting in hearing what other Barrow Downers have to say on this issue... __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.' Last edited by Osse; 07-04-2004 at 05:24 AM. Reason: further research proved my points to be invalid

07-05-2004, 05:27 AM	#6
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	Ah yes... i see now! Silly me... it is indeed 110 years between the founding of the realms and the defeat of sauron. That opens up my doubts somewhat, thank you Mith... We can just assume that the Numenoreans were all very young __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

07-03-2004, 01:35 PM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	Numenoreans started to build permanent havens as early as 1200SA and a thousand years later Pelargir and Imbar were built as the chief haven and great fortress of the Numenoreans in Middle Earth ...... So there were potentially 2000 year old communities of Numenoreans in Middle Earth when Elendil and co arrived... It is in the nature of things that the first Mariners may have taken local wives but as communities became more established it is not unlikely that Numenorean families may have "emigrated" and so the Numenorean strain may have been more concentrated rather than diluted over time ... especially since the disparity of lifespan would have meant that they would have preferred spouses of Numenorean descent - especially as the Numenoreans don't seem to have remarried after widowhood.... So it is quite likely that while the numenoreans and non numenoreans may have lived together peacefully they may not have intermarried to such a great extent once the communities were established and especially when "refugees" from the rebellion arrived ..... remember it was a thousand year between the start of the rebellion and the down fall.... The decline would have been more marked after the carnage of the last alliance....... However it can be seen that some communities held out longest and lifespan was the indicator - I can't quite remember who - maybe Beregond ? said that it was uncommon to reach eighty and still be hale unless you were from a "pure blood" family - The Princes of Dol Amroth all make 100 or thereabouts ... and while Imrahill is only a few years younger than Theoden - he is portrayed as a man in his prime..... The men of Dol Amroth also retain the classic Numenorean appearance ..... height as well as longevity being a Numenorean trait..... I think some of the regions had more non numenoreans... but I can't find that now ....... Faramir is an interesting case - he has the typical Numenorean traits of nobility of character and bearing and height - and he has a conspicuously long life reaching about 120 - which seems to be more than could have expected from his genetic legacy even allowing for the fact that he is the child of a Steward and a daughter of the "ultra pure" house of Dol Amroth. Maybe a small part of the "grace" given to the first Numenoreans was given to Faramir as a reward for his small but significant role in the success of the mission of the Ringbearer? I like to think so....

07-04-2004, 10:40 AM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	Oh I think you may have made the mistake I did on a RPG, necessitating a major bio rewrite..... there is a hundred and ten years between the downfall and the alliance...... Also the REalms in exile would have absorbed existing communities..... I mean I don't know how long there was a community at Bree but while it had been part of the North Kingdom, there is little evidence of numenorean blood in it's inhabitants and the rangers were in the time of the LOTR clearly a race apart..... However I think it is quite clear that the Numenoreans spread them selves pretty thinly especially in the north where no Numenorean communities survived the king and even in Gondor the populace was fragile - hence the willingness to give Calenardhon to the northmen.........