'high', purged of the gross: culture

[mark12_30]

In his letters, Tolkien spoke of Middle-Earth in elegant and lofty terms. Here's a quote from letter 131.

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story-the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths – which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East), and, while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry. I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.

Now that we've become aquainted with TOlkien's legendarium (his whole tale of Middle-Earth, his mythology, the grand sweep of his storytelling) have we "bought into " his ideals? Do we prefer his ideals, as bolded above? Here's a list:

What did he mean by "high and purged of the gross?" Is that important?

great, vast, fullness, clear, fair elusive beauty, steeped in poetry, majestic, splendour.

For instance, Does current Tolkien fandom reflect those ideals? Do the conversations on the Barrowdowns reflect those ideals?

(There is another thread for movie-related comments. Movie thread )

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I had always carelessly supposed that he was referring to the, shall we say, unpleasantness of many aspects of 'the real world' as opposed to the idealistic romantic stuff he was writing about.

However, I'm not sure I quite understand what the topic is about mark? Could you possibly elaborate? For my benefit if nothing else!

[mark12_30]

Eomer, I've edited my original post.

I'll talk a little bit about "high, purged of the gross". By "high" I think he means "heroic", in one sense, and also highly moral in another sense. Some people use the phrase "called higher" in a moral sense; I think Tolkien would like that phrase. There are many different aspects of this.

As a quick (and dirty) example, as Tolkien tells the story, I don't think there are many moments in the common activities of the characters in LOTR that one would respond to with "Eeew, gross." Tolkien reserves the feeling of slimy revulsion for the works of the enemy. When they get to the Dead Marshes, Shelob and her lair, orcs and their strongholds, and (interestingly) Gollum eating whatever he can find, *then* we are meant to feel revulsion.

As another instance, when Frodo and Sam get to Dagorlad, and there are ashes and oily pits everywhere, Sam's response is "I feel sick." We are meant to understand that the whole place nauseates him. But notice that Tolkien doesn't say that he loses his lunch; that would be "gross", wouldn't it?

One can argue that it's natural enough to lose one's lunch when one is nauseated, and I doubt Tolkien would argue; but he chose not to discuss it in detail, only to hint at the possibility. We could call it "tasteful", we could call it decorum or propriety. Or we could cal it "heroic tone"; none of the old epics talk about things we think of as normal and messy and unpleasant.

But there are many other aspects of Tolkien's "high" aspirations. For instance, Tolkien states somewhere in the appendices talking about orc speech, that it was actually a lot worse than he reported. Worse how? More obscene? More blasphemous? More vulgar? He specifically does *not* tell us. Why? Because that would lower the tone of the tale.

There are many aspects like this, where Tolkien *just doesn't talk* about stuff.

Does Tolkien fandom reflect that? Do Tolkien fans want to reflect that? Do we value that? What's good about it?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think I understand what you are getting at now mark. (Do other people call you 'mark'? Let me know if not! )

I certainly felt changed after I read The Lord of the Rings. I definitely felt more inclined to watch my language and mind my manners. Vulgar language is just something that doesn't go with the book. You don't finish reading The Tower of Cirith Ungol and proclaim "Now that's a ****** good chapter!" I do have some more examples but I think they are more suitable for the movies thread.

[Gorwingel]

Like are you meaning that in a way Tolkien was maybe sending us an ecrypted message through the book that in our society we need to mind our manners?

And then are you asking if Tolkien fans tend to be polite people who do mind our manners, thus living out the professors wish?

Well that is a hard question because the LOTR fans and Tolkien fans are a very diverse group of people. I have met many very nice people, but then their has always been the bad apple in the group. Now personally I guess you could say that the book and the world of ME has most definitely made me think, but I don't really think that it has effected my manners, because I always have been a very polite person during the entire course of my life.

Have I taken this topic completely off topic? Or do I just don't get what it's about?

[mark12_30]

I think you started the translation nicely. Yes, that is the sort of thing I think Tolkien was driving at; but I think it goes higher and deeper than politeness (although courtesy is certainly a part of it.)

So what else is involved? In a sense that's what I'm asking, and I put this in this particular forum because I wanted the perspective of people who are newer to the legendarium than all those "grizzled old veterans" who hang out in the Books forum.

What do you see that Tolkien *did* get across with his mythology? How did he succeed? Did he change us in any way? Did he influence us? Did he make us think?

Are we missing anything? Do we see that some seem to have somehow absorbed Middle-Earth in a way that others haven't? How **DO** people absorb Middle-Earth and what effect does it have?

And once we get those answers, does it look like Tolkien succeeded in making his dream come true?

He jokingly said "my crest is long since fallen", but was he judging the effects too early?