How Did Gimli Know? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Carnimírië · 06-12-2004, 05:39 PM

At the very end of Appendix A there's a dwarf family tree that was compiled for King Elessar by Gimli. No problem with that, except that Gimli himself is in the family tree, with two dates under it. The second date, according to Appendix B, is the date that Legolas and Gimli sail their grey ship to the Undying Lands. Gimli could not have written the second date on the family tree. Was that a later addition to the Red Book by one of Master Samwise's descendants?

Fingolfin II · 06-12-2004, 07:05 PM

I'd probably say it would have to be or it's just something Tolkien overlooked.

Son of Númenor · 06-12-2004, 07:17 PM

Gimli did not have the foresight to predict the year of his passing into the West with Legolas. Legolas decided to leave Middle-earth after the death of King Elessar, so there was not a set date for their departure that Gimli could have written in the genealogy either. Thus we are left to conclude that it was someone else who added the date of Legolas and Gimli's departure to the family tree.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-13-2004, 04:51 AM

The idea that this event was added to the Red Book of Westmarch at a later date is entirely consistent with Tolkien's mythical history of The Lord of the Rings as a translation of a Fourth-Age document. Ancient documents often contain additions by later generations, particularly historical chronicles. I would guess that one of the Fairbairns is supposed to have inserted the date for the sake of completeness after Gimli and Legolas had made their departure.

Son of Númenor · 06-13-2004, 08:26 AM

Quite true, Squatter. In fact, the family tree is immediately followed by a written third-person account of the departure of Legolas and Gimli, titled Here follows one of the last notes in the Red Book.

Carnimírië · 06-13-2004, 02:36 PM

Thanks for your reply, Squatter. That clears things up for me. I just was quite flummoxed (

) when I noticed that while reading the appendices.

06-12-2004, 05:39 PM	#1
Carnimírië Wight Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Avalon Posts: 211	How Did Gimli Know? At the very end of Appendix A there's a dwarf family tree that was compiled for King Elessar by Gimli. No problem with that, except that Gimli himself is in the family tree, with two dates under it. The second date, according to Appendix B, is the date that Legolas and Gimli sail their grey ship to the Undying Lands. Gimli could not have written the second date on the family tree. Was that a later addition to the Red Book by one of Master Samwise's descendants?

06-12-2004, 07:05 PM	#2
Fingolfin II Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Where you want me to be Posts: 1,036	I'd probably say it would have to be or it's just something Tolkien overlooked. __________________ Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.

06-12-2004, 07:17 PM	#3
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	Gimli the Seer? Gimli did not have the foresight to predict the year of his passing into the West with Legolas. Legolas decided to leave Middle-earth after the death of King Elessar, so there was not a set date for their departure that Gimli could have written in the genealogy either. Thus we are left to conclude that it was someone else who added the date of Legolas and Gimli's departure to the family tree. __________________ "This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement."

06-13-2004, 04:51 AM	#4
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Adding to the record The idea that this event was added to the Red Book of Westmarch at a later date is entirely consistent with Tolkien's mythical history of The Lord of the Rings as a translation of a Fourth-Age document. Ancient documents often contain additions by later generations, particularly historical chronicles. I would guess that one of the Fairbairns is supposed to have inserted the date for the sake of completeness after Gimli and Legolas had made their departure. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

06-13-2004, 08:26 AM	#5
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	Quite true, Squatter. In fact, the family tree is immediately followed by a written third-person account of the departure of Legolas and Gimli, titled Here follows one of the last notes in the Red Book. __________________ "This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement."

06-13-2004, 02:36 PM	#6
Carnimírië Wight Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Avalon Posts: 211	Thanks for your reply, Squatter. That clears things up for me. I just was quite flummoxed ( ) when I noticed that while reading the appendices. Last edited by Carnimírië; 06-13-2004 at 02:50 PM.