How the mighty do fall!

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I have notised a theme that seems to run through a lot of Tolkien's Middle Earth. This is that People who were grate or mighty, are often those who fall into Evil. Take Saurman,

He was great once
Frodo Baggins, Return of the King, book six, The scouring of the Shire

Also, the Witch king of Angmar, was Grate, now evil and dead. Denathor, was a respectable leader, now a dead twisted old fool. Sauron, was a faithful servant of the Valar, now a dead Follower of Morgoth. Even Melkor, once the mightiest of the Valar, now a lonely, footless, evil spirit trapped in the Void.

Is Tolkien trying to say something here?

[Firefoot]

Yes, I'd say that is somewhat of a recurring theme in Tolkien's works. Often those who are mighty fail. They do some great things and their wisdom goes astray and they fall. Not always - there are some mighty ones such as Gandalf, Aragorn, Faramir, and many more that don't fall - but many times they do. I just thought of another good example - most of the later kings of Númenor were mighty (or could have been) but they turned away from the Valar and trusted in their own strength, eventually resulting in the sinking of Númenor.

Something going along with that is not only that the great fail but those who aren't strong succeed - in Gandalf's words

and help oft shall come from the hands of the weak when the Wise falter.

It is one of the things that makes the books appeal to us - that it isn't always the superhero who comes in and saves everybody, but those who are not strong that change the course of the future.

Edit: This is my 501st post!!! I'm a Ghost Prince - or rather I would be if the titles were working!!!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Elenrod hands Firefoot a blue smartie muffin.

Ahem. Anywhen...

This is that People who were grate or mighty, are often those who fall into Evil.

You could classify these motley collection of deceased dudes into two:
1. Those who are proud of their own abilities, mixed with contempt for those of others. *coughcoughSarumancoughDenethor*

2. Those who desire domination of others. *coughcoughMorgothcoughNazgûl*

In two words: Pride kills.

And hurrah for Gandalf.

[Gorwingel]

I guess you could sum up tolkien's message about this topic like this...

If you are mightly, powerful, and have great influence... don't become evil. Because it will just bring you death, failure, and dispair in the end.

All of the mighty who did fall in Tolkien's works, fell because they went to the evil side and strayed from their original purpose. They gave into their own personal greed, and desires for greatness and domination over everything. The mighty who didn't fall (like Gandalf) stuck to their original purpose, and kept on basically a path of "good". And of course they were rewarded in the end.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

In two words: Pride kills.

And hurrah for Gandalf

That would seem to be true, as many times throughout the book people have insulted Old Olorin, (he he, Old Olorin I always wanted to do that) and he had the power to blast them into a small pile of smoke with eyes I expect. But he obeyed the laws set down by the Valar, to never do such a thing. Although, one dose wonder, how did he resist the temptation to turn to Evil? He had great Power, with the added power of the third ring, I expect that, if he wanted, he could have beaten Saruman, but didn't as he perhaps for saw that he would set himself in place of Saruman and end up down the same road.
The same may be said of Faramir, he had the chance to take the one ring for himself, and perhaps he did not want to have the same fate as his brother. It is also a recurring pattern that the wise or powerful who might go down the road of Evil, make a drastic decision which diverts the cause of Evil.


P.S. Congratulations Firefoot!


(Edited by moderator to remove image - please limit the use of those to Tolkien- and thread-relevant subjects.)

[Finwe]

It's like that saying, "Absolute power corrupts." It's very hard to gain a lot of power and not abuse it. All of us abuse power in some manner. Tolkien wanted to teach us to use our power to do good and to help others, not oppress them.

[Nimikôi Angarauko]

well guys im new to the forums but heres my input i recently, meaning last week, wrote a paper about the good vs evil complexities in lotr and i feel that the Evil Manifest, as i call them, fall due to their desire for something out of their reach and instead of letting it go it drives them with an evil ambition, but this desire never starts out evil just over ambitious case in point Melkor all he wanted to do was create life of his own to basically be a true God but this eventually drove him to his other horrible deeds i.e. the creature of orcs, his want to enslave the earth, and a slew of others. This over ambitious desire is seen time and time again even with Saruman he started out with intention to take the Ring from the Enemy and destroy him even to the end, well to the end but to the fall of orthanc, and use it to destroy the Enemy thats also why he played "puppet" to sauron so he could survive the flood and in the end be triumphet and there are the first signs of his evil. The truely Evil beings are bad their just written that way

[lore_master]

I think Tolkein is trying to say, that the world is changing, you cant really trust anymore for the mighty to be mighty, and the weak to be weak.

i also susspect Olorin could have blasted everyone to mandos, if he wanted to, but he didnt because, as we all know, he was the wisest Miar, and knew that if he did, he would probably turn out just like, Sauruman, or Sauron

[Nimikôi Angarauko]

hmmmm that just gave me an idea Gandalf vs The World video game the francizing rights alone would make us rich RICH AS DWARVES !!

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nimikôi Angarauko

well guys im new to the forums but heres my input i recently, meaning last week, wrote a paper about the good vs evil complexities in lotr and i feel that the Evil Manifest, as i call them, fall due to their desire for something out of their reach and instead of letting it go it drives them with an evil ambition, but this desire never starts out evil just over ambitious case in point Melkor all he wanted to do was create life of his own to basically be a true God but this eventually drove him to his other horrible deeds i.e. the creature of orcs, his want to enslave the earth, and a slew of others. This over ambitious desire is seen time and time again even with Saruman he started out with intention to take the Ring from the Enemy and destroy him even to the end, well to the end but to the fall of orthanc, and use it to destroy the Enemy thats also why he played "puppet" to sauron so he could survive the flood and in the end be triumphet and there are the first signs of his evil. The truely Evil beings are bad their just written that way

I think a hello and welcome is in order and also to Althern who I see has fewer posts.

I have notised a theme that seems to run through a lot of Tolkien's Middle Earth. This is that People who were grate or mighty, are often those who fall into Evil. Take Saurman,


He was great once
Frodo Baggins, Return of the King, book six, The scouring of the Shire
Also, the Witch king of Angmar, was Grate, now evil and dead. Denathor, was a respectable leader, now a dead twisted old fool. Sauron, was a faithful servant of the Valar, now a dead Follower of Morgoth. Even Melkor, once the mightiest of the Valar, now a lonely, footless, evil spirit trapped in the Void.

Is Tolkien trying to say something here?

I guess that the corrupted Maia who followed Melkor in the rebellion just didn't like classical music. Melkor invented a new musical trend with repetitive chords. They were hard to forget.

Why Melkor would (want) to turn Arda into a dust bowl of darkness and ruined things is hard to understand.

The Valar never had a real solution to the question of Evil. They never developed means to understand their own Vanity, and I argue that the Evil of Arda was the mirror of that which the Ainur denied in themselves, (i.e. did not *resolve* in themselves). Evil cannot exist without its shadow being cast by or in or through the minds of the Ainur-Good. As Tolkien said about the Nazgul - mortals' presence "casts a shadow in their minds". That's always remained vivid imagery.

What is the shadow cast in such a mind? And what Ainur ever bothered to repair Sauron's works, or Melkor's without necessity to destroy them.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

So, how much does spending time in a lowly state affect one's sense of pride? Morwen's seems to have increased when she became poor. Is there a pattern, or is it individual randomness?

It's probably also worth remembering that it was fear of ending up in a lowly state which motivated Sauron to refuse to return to Valinor for judgement, knowing that he would have been the lowest of the low in reflection of his primacy among Morgoth's underlings. His pride had never suffered, and he couldn't seemingly bear the thought of it suffering then.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I think a hello and welcome is in order and also to Althern who I see has fewer posts.

Might be a bit late unfortunately. You can see in the top left of the post the date of posting, and that was 2004. You can also check when a person last posted on their profile. Somehow I fear that if someone last posted twelve years ago a welcome now is unlikely to bring them back. That was a happier time, before the Hobbit films were made.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Why Melkor would (want) to turn Arda into a dust bowl of darkness and ruined things is hard to understand.

To keep things on topic with Inzil's post reviving the thread twelve years later, the reason for this was pride - pride which had become "nihilistic madness" as Professor Tolkien called it. He did not create the world, so he could not bear the thought that it existed at all. Therefore he wished to destroy it.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The Valar never had a real solution to the question of Evil.

This has come up before. It was not the Valar's role to find a full solution to the question, simply to maintain Arda's habitability for the Children of Eru. Eru had already solved the problem of Evil in the Music through the concept of "Arda Healed". This is all explained in parts 4 and 5 of Morgoth's Ring, which really are essential reading and answer a lot of common questions when exploring the metaphysics of Professor Tolkien's invention in more detail.

Is Lobelia an example of someone who learnt humility after pride? Does a character need to begin in a position of (relative) humility to be humble when they achieve greatness? Are there initially "great" characters who become humble later?