Sauron in Numenor

[Tharlionglin]

Sauron was in Numenor for quite some time and the ring did not travel with him. It was in Barad Dur that much is certain, but why did no one claim it for themselves?

Just a thought

[Fingolfin II]

Well, if Sauron did leave the Ring with him, then-

a) I don't think anyone would dare to enter Mordor. It's still a very scary place and well guarded. Even after the War of the Ring I don't think it was inhabited (except maybe by orcs and evil men).

b) Also, it was extremely well guarded by orcs, men and the Nazgul.

c) The wise wouldn't know the whereabouts of the Ring.

[Mahal]

If there was someone who could overthrow Sauron, they didn't know where the ring was hidden anyway.


[your sig's WAY too long. -Sharkû]

[Sharkû]

Sauron took the Ring with him to Númenor:

"Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring." (Letter 211)

[Tharlionglin]

Sauron did not bring the one ring with him to Numenor, and if he had it would have been lost at sea with the downfall of Numenor. It was left in Barad Dur.

"and came back tgo Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur."

I was thinking more along the lines of a fallen Numenorean, like the one before the black gate.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

In my opinion, the quote posted by Tharlionglin only indicates that after the Fall of Numenor, Sauron didn't use the Ring until he was back in Mordor.
The quote from the Letters posted by Sharkû is conclusive: Sauron had the Ring in Númenor and used it while he was there

[Tharlionglin]

If Sauron had the ring in Numenor it would have been lost at sea with the falling of Numenor. Only his spirit returned to Middle-Earth

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Tolkien said that Sauron had the Ring in Númenor. And Tolkien said that Sauron had the Ring in Mordor, after the Drowning of Númenor.

How the Ring went from Númenor to Mordor is not known (at least I don't remember having read about it). Maybe the spirit of Sauron was able to carry the Ring or maybe he carried the Ring to Númenor before the fall ...

[Tharlionglin]

I disagree, if yo ucan show me where it says the ring came to Numenor I would appreciate it but this is the real reason for the thread. It does however say that he takes up the ring in Barad Dur again with no mention of it while he was in Numenor, and no mention of Sauron using it Numenor. Don't you think that he would have if he could?

To think that his spirit carried away the ring is a bit far fetched, if he could 'carry' the ring while in spirit form why would he have left it on the battlefield for Isildur, why wouldn't he swoop into the Anduin and claim it. It's obvious that he went to great lengths to have the ring brought to him, by his agents of darkness.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Tharlionglin, Sharkû posted in this thread the quote in which Tolkien says that Sauron had the Ring and used it when in Númenor. The quote is from letter 211, a letter to Rhona Beare.

And I realize now that I was wrong, because in this same letter, Tolkien makes also a comment about Sauron carrying the Ring to Mordor

Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.

Letter 211; To Rhona Beare, 14 october 1958

[Tharlionglin]

Thanks,

I wanted to play devils advocate, so I got the discussion that I wanted.

Where is the information that was quoted from the letters?

All I have is the books.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

So...
1. Sauron had the Ring on Numenor.
2. He had the ring when Atlantis sunk.
3. His physical form perished when Atlantic sunk.
4. Without a physical form, He carried the Ring over the realm of Ulmo (why didn't that guy grap the ring, by the way?)
5. He took a physical form and returned to Mordor.

All this begs THE question, which is how did Sauron transport the Ring to land if his physical form is already gone?

But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-Earth and to Mordor that was his home.

Okay, re-phrasing a little:
1. Sauron's physical form drowned when Atlantis sunk.
2. Somehow, the Ring did not sink.
3. The spirit of Sauron rise from the sea.
4. It graps the ring with spirit hands.
5. It transform into a typhoon and fly with the Ring to Mordor.

The Ring is Fea, Sauron was, for a while, a houseless spirit. So I guess Sauron should not have been capable of carrying the Ring. So here are some of my twisted theories...

Theory number 2:
1. Sauron's physical form drowned when Atlantis sunk.
2. The Ring was washed away by tsunami.
3. Sauron's spirit rise from the sea, and find that the Ring is gone!
4. The Ring wash towards Middle-Earth, was swallowed by a fish. (Fish turned invisible)
5. Sauron transformed into typhoon, fly towards Mordor.
6. Once there, Sauron ordered all orcs and men to begin fishing for invisible fish.

Bonus theory 3:
1. Sauron's physical form drowned when Atlantis sunk.
2. The Ring sunk, and hit Osse on the head.
3. Osse, being buddy of Melkor in the early days, carried it up to the surface.
4. Sauron's spirit transformed into Black wind, and blow the Ring towards Mordor.

Are there other more plausible theories?

[Tharlionglin]

I love it this thread was getting a little serious, nothing like a little humour to get the day started.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Sorry Tharlionglin, I didn't understand that you knew nothing about the Letters

Humphrey Carpenter published a collection of letters sent by Tolkien, in the book The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien Here you have a link to this book in Amazon:

The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien

It a very interesting book. In these letters Tolkien explains a lot of things about Middle Earth that cannot be found anywhere else, and it is also a very good source for knowing him better

[symestreem]

Sauron's spirit was in the Ring. Or bound to the Ring. So maybe it's not so unlikely that he brought the Ring back. But let's think about the ramifications of this for a moment:
Sauron lost the Ring in the Second Age. He was not able to carry it back to Mordor. If he HAD done this before, than this implies that he lost more power when Isildur cut the Ring off of his finger than when Numenor drowned. But Sauron's physical form perished in the drowning of Numenor, and did not perish when Isildur cut the Ring. (I. e., it was merely a flesh wound. ) But Sauron's physical form desolved shortly after, which indicates that he could not be separated from the Ring. Which means that he must have had the Ring with him in Numenor.
Then why couldn't Sauron take the Ring back after Isildur took it? In Numenor, his body either perished by drowning or if the Ring was separated from him. If the Ring was separated from him and he managed to retrieve it, why could he not do so later? He grew just as powerful during the War of the Ring, yet he couldn't even find it!
So his body must have drowned, and his spirit took the Ring back to Mordor. I won't dwell on how. So the only difference between the two perishings of his physical body was that in one, the Ring was taken from him. This must have diminished his power like the other did not, which means that... uh... I've taken a long time to get to an obvious point?
But wait! That means that it was the act of being separated from the Ring that crushed Sauron. Is this why he couldn't take physical form again, unless he grew so much more powerful that the absence of the Ring didn't matter (as much)? Hmm. The first perishment (is that a word?) of his body lost him the ability to appear in a fair form. The second lost him the ability to appear at all. I'm sensing a connection with Gandalf and Saruman, but my brain is too fried to pursue it.

[Tharlionglin]

Thanks guys.

I wasn't sure what kind of response I was going to get but it has been humourous, thanks to Hot and Crispy Hobbit and informative as well thanks to Sharku. The information about the letters is going to be quite a good read, thanks Amarie.

I just finished the Silmarillion for the umpteeth time and will move my way through the LOTR series again, planning a trip to Chapters to pick up the copy of the letters to restart the cycle again.

My particular thoughts on the matter is that Sauron left the one ring in Barad Dur as he would not risk to lose it in Numenor if things went ill. This avoids the tricky issue of how did the ring return with him to ME when he had no physical form to carry it, as well as his inability to regain the ring while in spirit form after Isildur so kindly cut it off his hand.

So I have some research to do. No offense Sharku but as always I like to see it for myself.

Happy reading.

Tharlionglin

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Could Sauron have bound the Ring to himself. Since the Ring is his power, he could touch it, or carry it, even without physical hands.

But one thing's for sure: he did carry the Ring to Númenor. Aside from Sharkey's quote from the Letters, substantial evidence point to it:

1. He could never leave the Ring behind. Aside from physical disconnection from a great part of his power, he could never trust anyone to whom he leaves the Ring to. Even if he leaves the Ring in some sort of safe, who knows what would happen to anyone who could feel its presence, and be tempted by it?

2. He dominated the Númenoreans, an otherwise learned people, quite quickly. Could he have done it with only a honeyed tongue and good looks alone? (Sauron's good looks - eww!)

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I love it this thread was getting a little serious, nothing like a little humour to get the day started.

You're most welcome. (If I don't get roasted for tickling the scholars in their heated debates)

I still wonder, though, why didn't the Dweller of the Deeps grap the One Ring (which is made of gold) while it is floating up from the depths... For that matter, why didn't Ulmo also grap the Silmaril which Maglor throw into the Sea?

*Runs before the tomatoes fly*

[drigel]

that does make one wonder what actor would best portray the "good looking Sauron". hmmm

I feel he didnt need a ring. He was a Maia for goodness sakes!

[Tharlionglin]

good point, never thought about the silmaril that way. Maybe he has it on his crown,hahaha the morgoth of the sea!